‘Genocide denial laws will shut down debate’

[Elok]

Originally posted by Proteus_MST
Although I don´t know if it helps if such propaganda is forbidden, I believe that if for example every bookstore could freely sell books about the superiority of the Arian race or with nazi propaganda in it (because of unrestricted free speech) we would have a lot more neonazis than we have nowadays.

Well, in America, such a bookstore would probably be boycotted to hell and back until it went out of business or dropped the books in question. Even if they weren't, there would be a flood of polemic 'why nazis are morons' books by anyone with or without the knowledge to properly argue the subject, the airwaves would get clogged with intellectuals and soapboxing celebrities hocking their latest such work, and eventually the public would get sick of both sides of the subject and it would be consigned to backwater internet forums and the deep south. Which is pretty much where it is today.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Proteus_MST
But, if I remember correctly, you still had a racism problem, even during the 60s of the 20th century, especially in more rural areas of the states (don´t know how it deveoped afterwards, though)

Yep, and we didn't ban racist speech. The FBI did ban terrorist actions, but those were against the law in the first place. They could speak all they wanted. And the Confederate Flag is still shown by some ignorant folk. Doesn't mean it has to be banned.

[Arrian]

eventually the public would get sick of both sides of the subject and it would be consigned to backwater internet forums and the deep south.

-Arrian

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Arrian




-Arrian

ive lived in the deep south, and didnt notice any particular concentration of neo-nazis there. Well, I wasnt in Louisiana, but thats hardly typical of the deep South.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Yeah, they are all in Illinois .

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by Wernazuma III


Well, this argument is void, you didn't have Hitler or the Nazis in power in the first place, right?

We never had Hitler in power either, and we do have a neonazi problem.

[Arrian]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


ive lived in the deep south, and didnt notice any particular concentration of neo-nazis there. Well, I wasnt in Louisiana, but thats hardly typical of the deep South.

I was just laughing at the stereotype of all backwards/intolerant ideologies ending up in the deep south. I thought it was funny, and I'm pretty sure Elok was (partly, at least) joking.

Yeah, they're all in Illinois

Blues Brothers

-Arrian

[Elok]

Sort of joking, mostly just glib and indifferent. I don't know where the skinheads in this country are, and I don't care. They're one of the most thoroughly irrelevant sections of our population wherever they are. So I tacked on "and the deep south," just because leaving it at "backwater internet forums" didn't have the right rhythm to my ear. I've never been south of Virginia in my life, AFAIK.

[Cort Haus]

Hazy on the facts? Deploy Rhetorical Rhythm (TM) - guaranteed to make your posts spin.

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Wernazuma III

Proteus is right in one thing: You'd be surprised how Nazi-speak still somehow lingers in the background. Few embrace Nazism openly, most surely aren't even aware that they actually still use some Nazi terms or have opinions that clearly are a legacy of the time (and be really offended if you tell them), yet all this can be activated to a certain extent by demagogues.

Examples? I suspect you are generalizing Nazi ideology to include most viewpoints between your own or those you find marginally acceptable and those of the Nazis. But I suppose I should see some examples before judging.

[Wernazuma III]

Originally posted by Geronimo


Examples? I suspect you are generalizing Nazi ideology to include most viewpoints between your own or those you find marginally acceptable and those of the Nazis. But I suppose I should see some examples before judging.

Probably you should, I'm no idiot. No, I'm not name-calling everyone a Nazi. I would never. Nazism is something very specific, confined to a determined space and period. Fascism is the more common and applicable concept. If I have to call names, it will be far more often "fascist". - That's also why I said that I don't fear true "Zombie-Nazism" coming from the tombs. The fascists would build on some elements, but not revive it.

What I mean is that Nazi-speak is deeply rooted in Austria, and surely in Germany too. Also, some Nazi-myths, even among non-Nazis. And that's something modern fascists could exploit.

Some idiotic FPÖ (far right) politician once said openly(!) "Meine Ehre heisst Treue" ("My honor is called fidelity") and was shocked when the media and other politicians started to call him a Nazi, since this was an infamous SS motto. He said he didn't know and never thought something could be wrong about honor and fidelity... Maybe he was just lying, but since the guy was very dumb, it is well possible he really didn't mean it in a Nazi way. He maybe just picked it up somewhere on the way.

In football stadium in Graz, many young fans from my club shout "Rote, wehrt euch, geht nicht zu den Schwarzen" (Reds [=GAK], resist, don't go the blacks [=Sturm]) (note, the Sturm fans shout the same vice versa). This, of course resembles the mob shouting "Deutsche, wehrt euch, kauft nicht bei den Juden" (Germans, resist, don't buy at the Jew's store). And it's not only the neo-Nazi idiots who shout that. At one point I told a folk what he was actually shouting there, and he was rather shocked.

And this continues well into the families. Occasionally my mom (absolutely politically desinterested, in most topics pretty liberal, with not even any anti-Israel opinion or anything) shocks me when I discover that she has some fixed concept of "the Jew" (greedy, intelligent, conspiratively networking). And my grandfather on that family's side was't even remotely Nazi! She's always very embarassed when I point to that, vowing that she is no anti-semite.

Or those old myths, that the Nazi's made good employment policies and built the Autobahn and whatnot, all this survived so long even among people whom I'd never personally classify as Nazis or even fascists.

That's just a few examples, there's hundreds of phrases or words still in use that have a clear Nazi-legacy. And even worse, some words still carry some of the Nazi meaning. The mentioned concept of "Treue" (fidelity) will never be free of what it meant to the Nazis - blind obedience.

And if those words still have a positive meaning for many, they might be more easily manipulated by demagogues.

[Elok]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
Hazy on the facts? Deploy Rhetorical Rhythm (TM) - guaranteed to make your posts spin.

Pretty much. Hey, for all I know, the stereotype is true...people who say all stereotypes are false have obviously never met a frat boy.

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Last Conformist

We never had Hitler in power either, and we do have a neonazi problem.

Well, even Russia and Poland have - stupidity is a supranational constant.

[Cort Haus]

Wernazuma, who built the Autobahn?

[BeBMan]

The Gröfaz.