Iraqis Win One

[lord of the mark]

Yale appointment
In 2006 Cole was nominated to teach at Yale University and was approved by both Yale's sociology and history departments. However, the senior appointments committee overruled the departments, and Cole was not appointed.

According to "several Yale faculty members," the decision to overrule Cole's approval was "highly unusual." [28] However, Yale officials stated that the rejection was not unusual, and Deputy Provost Charles Long stated that "every year, least one and often more fail at one of these levels, and that happened in this case." [29] The history department vote was 13 yes, 7 no, and 3 abstain. [30] Professors interviewed by the Yale Daily News said "the faculty appeared sharply divided." [31]

Yale Historian Paula Hyman commented that the deep divisions in the appointment committee were the primary reasons that Cole was rejected: "There was also concern, aside from the process, about the nature of his blog and what it would be like to have a very divisive colleague." [32] Yale political science professor Steven B. Smith commented, "It would be very comforting for Cole's supporters to think that this got steamrolled because of his controversial blog opinions. The blog opened people's eyes as to what was going on. He was a kind of stealth candidate. I didn't know anybody that knew about this coming in; he was just kind of smuggled. And I think the blog opened people's eyes as to who this guy was, and what his views were.... It allowed us to see something about the quality of his mind." [33]

[Ramo]

Yah, well, Sadrs dad is dead. Dont know as hed really object to the deaths of ALL the remaining Najaf GAs (the Qom GAs would of course survive) but then i never said it was Sadr.

Then why are you arguing the point?

If you're talking about living people, technically Sadr is a member of the Shia clergy. The quote from al-Hayat says that the group wants to kill "clergymen and the grand ayatollahs." It's after the Clergy as an institution, not a personal vendetta against Sistani.

Well seeing as none of the articles said it was Sadrists, I dont know why Cole feels the need to point that out.

He was intellectually curious about the possibility. Why are you arguing such a silly point? It's entirely possible that this is a Sadrist splinter group...

Perhaps cause this quote started with "Juan Cole is interesting as usual" Juan Cole, whos an expert on, you know, Bahaism, has somehow morphed via his blog into an expert on modern ME politics.

Where did you get the idea that he has only studied Bahai'sm? From Wiki:

Cole's work has focused on the social and cultural history of modern Egypt, Shi'ite Islam in modern Iran and Iraq, the Baha'i Faith, and religion in South Asia. Since 9/11 he has written more about current affairs. In addition to academic work, he enjoys translating and has rendered into English books by Kahlil Gibran and Mírzá Abu'l-Fadl, as well as working on Urdu fiction.

Cole's initial work was on the 19th century, but he has formally published in refereed academic proceedings on the Taliban, on 9/11, the Ayatollahs of Iraq and their involvement in democracy (the Ayatollah Sistani approach of minimal interference as distinguished to the Jurisprudence of the Guardians[3] of Ayatollah Khomeini), on the historiography of the Muslim Brotherhood, on the Salafi leader Rashid Rida and on many other twentieth century and twenty-first century subjects. His book Sacred Space and Holy War contains material on the modern history of the Arab Shiites and on the Islamic Republic of Iran. He has also published material on the treatment of religious minorities by the Islamic Republic in the last thirty or so years.

Cole speaks Arabic (Modern Standard as well as Lebanese and Egyptian dialects), Persian, and Urdu, and is familiar with Turkish. [2]

The CIA is accused of killing Aldo Moro. Not blowing up the Vatican, but then we dont know for sure that these guys wanted to blow up the shrine in Najaf, do we?

Again, the point is that you're conflating a prominent political figure who had ties to the Clergy with the clerical hierarchy.

Anyway, something doesnt add up just yet. Iraqi army guys say this group was well armed and well trained. Im wondering how a messianic group unconnected to any of the major political parties or militias managed to get that well armed and well trained.

How big does a kidnapping/extorting group need to get to have the economy of scale necessary?

The history department vote was 13 yes, 7 no, and 3 abstain. [30] Professors interviewed by the Yale Daily News said "the faculty appeared sharply divided." [31]

13 > 7

[Ramo]

Incidentally, why should anyone listen to Fred Kagan? It's not like we're fighting Nappy...

[TCO]

Originally posted by Cyclotron


How wonderful that, after four years of bloody occupation, we are making baby steps

Now that's progress, people!

The idiots on the left are as bad or worse than the ones on the right. Need to be a cynical bastard like me.

Let the Shia buttfook the Sunnis for a while. Maybe "cleanse" some neighborhoods a bit.

[Ramo]

Not really, 'specially seeing as how the idiots on the right are the folks who got us and the Iraqi people into this mess.

And you realize that these Mahdawiya guys are probably a Shia sect, right? Yes, ethnically cleanse the Sunnis, that'll teach 'em.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
What's so surprising about the Shia-dominated Iraqi Army killing a bunch of Sunni insurgents? The problem with the Iraqi Army is that they're too gung-ho about killing Sunnis and not nearly as dependable when it comes to fighting Shia militias...

Yep. I'd be extremely surprised if the (almost entirely shia) "Iraqi Army" ever actually stood up to any of the three major shia militias. Even if it did it would probably take sides among the militias to try to bring one of the other militias into a dominate position.

[TCO]

Originally posted by Ramo
Not really, 'specially seeing as how the idiots on the right are the folks who got us and the Iraqi people into this mess.

And you realize that these Mahdawiya guys are probably a Shia sect, right? Yes, ethnically cleanse the Sunnis, that'll teach 'em.

Of course, I know that...OMAR!

That's why I can't understand the daft policy of us trying to police the whole place, fighting all comers, or expecting a tissue paper regime to do so. The whole reason that Mahdi exists is he is the only Shia with balls enough to go after Sunnis. No way, should we attack him. That's just Bush moronity.

Instead, be an evil bastard like me. Shia tilt, baby...sorry, Sunni.

BTW, read the blog below. This guy is in favor of partition (i.e. neighborhood cleansing). He thinks we can get the Shia on our side without Mahdi, by tilting obviously. I'm not so sure that we can any more.

http://westhawk.blogspot.com/2006/12/mission-possible-how-us-will-win-in.html

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Yale Historian Paula Hyman commented that the deep divisions in the appointment committee were the primary reasons that Cole was rejected:

I call BS on Hyman. The Administration didn't want him so they overruled the faculty. This happens quite frequently to leftist professors, while rightest professors are often given tenure against the recommendation of the faculty.

[chequita guevara]

The Waco of Iraq?
US "Victory" Against Cult Leader was a Massacre

By PATRICK COCKBURN

Baghdad.

There are growing suspicions in Iraq that the official story of the battle outside Najaf between a messianic Iraqi cult and the Iraqi security forces supported by the US, in which 263 people were killed and 210 wounded, is a fabrication. The heavy casualties may be evidence of an unpremeditated massacre.

A picture is beginning to emerge of a clash between an Iraqi Shia tribe on a pilgrimage to Najaf and an Iraqi army checkpoint that led the US to intervene with devastating effect. The involvement of Ahmed al-Hassani (also known as Abu Kamar), who believed himself to be the coming Mahdi, or Messiah, appears to have been accidental.

The story emerging on independent Iraqi websites and in Arabic newspapers is entirely different from the government's account of the battle with the so-called "Soldiers of Heaven", planning a raid on Najaf to kill Shia religious leaders.

The cult denied it was involved in the fighting, saying it was a peaceful movement. The incident reportedly began when a procession of 200 pilgrims was on its way, on foot, to celebrate Ashura in Najaf. They came from the Hawatim tribe, which lives between Najaf and Diwaniyah to the south, and arrived in the Zarga area, one mile from Najaf at about 6am on Sunday. Heading the procession was the chief of the tribe, Hajj Sa'ad Sa'ad Nayif al-Hatemi, and his wife driving in their 1982 Super Toyota sedan because they could not walk. When they reached an Iraqi army checkpoint it opened fire, killing Mr Hatemi, his wife and his driver, Jabar Ridha al-Hatemi. The tribe, fully armed because they were travelling at night, then assaulted the checkpoint to avenge their fallen chief.

Members of another tribe called Khaza'il living in Zarga tried to stop the fighting but they themselves came under fire. Meanwhile, the soldiers and police at the checkpoint called up their commanders saying they were under attack from al-Qai'da with advanced weapons. Reinforcements poured into the area and surrounded the Hawatim tribe in the nearby orchards. The tribesmen tried - in vain - to get their attackers to cease fire.

American helicopters then arrived and dropped leaflets saying: "To the terrorists, surrender before we bomb the area." The tribesmen went on firing and a US helicopter was hit and crashed killing two crewmen. The tribesmen say they do not know if they hit it or if it was brought down by friendly fire. The US aircraft launched an intense aerial bombardment in which 120 tribesmen and local residents were killed by 4am on Monday.

The messianic group led by Ahmad al-Hassani, which was already at odds with the Iraqi authorities in Najaf, was drawn into the fighting because it was based in Zarga and its presence provided a convenient excuse for what was in effect a massacre. The Hawatim and Khaza'il tribes are opposed to the Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq (SCIRI) and the Dawa Party, who both control Najaf and make up the core of the Baghdad government.
This account cannot be substantiated and is drawn from the Healing Iraq website and the authoritative Baghdad daily Azzaman. But it would explain the disparity between the government casualties - less than 25 by one account - and the great number of their opponents killed and wounded. The Iraqi authorities have sealed the site and are not letting reporters talk to the wounded.

Sectarian killings across Iraq also marred the celebration of the Shia ritual of Ashura. A suicide bomber killed 23 worshippers and wounded 57 others in a Shia mosque in Balad Ruz. Not far away in Khanaqin, in Diyala, a bomb killed 13 people, including three women, and wounded 29 others. In east Baghdad mortar bombs killed 17 people.

Patrick Cockburn is the author of 'The Occupation: War, resistance and daily life in Iraq', a finalist for the National Book Critics' Circle Award for best non-fiction book of 2006.

[Ramo]

Of course, I know that...OMAR!

That's why I can't understand the daft policy of us trying to police the whole place, fighting all comers, or expecting a tissue paper regime to do so. The whole reason that Mahdi exists is he is the only Shia with balls enough to go after Sunnis. No way, should we attack him. That's just Bush moronity.

Instead, be an evil bastard like me. Shia tilt, baby...sorry, Sunni.

BTW, read the blog below. This guy is in favor of partition (i.e. neighborhood cleansing). He thinks we can get the Shia on our side without Mahdi, by tilting obviously. I'm not so sure that we can any more.

Different groups. The Mahdi is equivalent to the Messiah in Islam (usually Shia), not a particular person per se. Sadr doesn't consider himself the Mahdi, AFAIK, though some of his followers might. The Mahdawiya/Soldiers of Heaven appear to be a distinct group from the Mahdi Army/Sadrists, though they share some similarities (such as their their millennialism - belief in the imminent coming of the Mahdi to fix everything, their nationalism, and their anticlericalism to differing degrees).

As for letting them ethnically cleanse the Sunnis, that's a fool's game as we've discussed earlier. That isn't gonna contain the violence given the regional climate.

[Ramo]

By PATRICK COCKBURN

Any relation to Alexander?

[General Ludd]

250 Insurgents Dead Near Najaf

Sounds like the Iraqis lost one (or two hundred and fifty) to me.

[Chemical Ollie]

Re: Re: Iraqis Win One

Originally posted by Ellestar

250 killed, 250 recruited back because of 25 children wounded or dead. Way to go, USA. Only 28.800.000 Iraqis left.

[TCO]

Originally posted by Ramo


Different groups. The Mahdi is equivalent to the Messiah in Islam (usually Shia), not a particular person per se. Sadr doesn't consider himself the Mahdi, AFAIK, though some of his followers might. The Mahdawiya/Soldiers of Heaven appear to be a distinct group from the Mahdi Army/Sadrists, though they share some similarities (such as their their millennialism - belief in the imminent coming of the Mahdi to fix everything, their nationalism, and their anticlericalism to differing degrees).

As for letting them ethnically cleanse the Sunnis, that's a fool's game as we've discussed earlier. That isn't gonna contain the violence given the regional climate.

1. Like I said, I'm well aware that the militia are Shia. Don't take me for a Bush lackey who wants to pacify the place and fight all comers, etc.

2. I argue that partiticon (and cleansing is an effective way to get partition) is a means to stability. Read the website that I referred you to.

[TCO]

Plus, the Sunnis deserve it. And good for the Shia to get some spine. And you are a Sunni...so that's a cherry on the top.