Ask a Muslim

[Arrian]

It took restraint on my part not to respond with the big guns, but I did it.

You both showed about the same amount of restraint (each posting a massive post with various rebuttals with "but I'll stop there" tags on them). You did apparently avoid a massive flamewar, though.

-Arrian

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by Brachy-Pride
whats the problem with music?

That's covered quite in detail over there.

[Barnabas]

In which page of the 33 they start discussing that?

[Fake Boris]

Meh . Aneeshm , sees what he wants to see .

[Barnabas]

Has there been any conversation about the nature of the virgins good muslims get in paradise? if the virgins are human? humans but never lived on earth? non human creatures especially created by God to give pleasure to good muslims?

Ask him that

[Arrian]

Yes, the 72 virgin thing has been discussed. In fact, it's discussed on the last page, so it's easy to find.

The music discussion in just before that.

-Arrian

[Pekka]

Ask him if they also like the anal intercourse as means to avoid vaginal impurity before marriage, like Christians often do, especially in the most backward places?

[Arrian]

There is a long and involved discussion regarding homosexuality and anal sex in that thread... suffice it to say he's not far off from Ben Kenobi's stance.

-Arrian

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by Brachy-Pride
Has there been any conversation about the nature of the virgins good muslims get in paradise? if the virgins are human? humans but never lived on earth? non human creatures especially created by God to give pleasure to good muslims?

Ask him that

I think someone just asked that. Here I quote the question, and his reply:

I have a question. (It's probably been asked before, knowing this crowd....) Do you really believe that you will have 72 women to have your way with for all eternity after you die? Do you think there will be anything more to heaven - like, say, worshiping God - besides screwing houri?

Excellent question, and I'm glad you asked it.

In fact, there are a multitude of rewards that we are told about in the Quran and the Prophetic Sayings. The 72 virgins promised are but *one* of the many rewards promised. Although there are dozens of verses in the Quran about Paradise and its rewards, only five of them mention the virgins. The rest mention other rewards in Paradise.

Amongst all of these rewards in Paradise, the *greatest* reward in Paradise is to see the Face of Allah, which means to be in the Glory of God's presence and to be in His good pleasure. Allah describes Paradise by saying:

"Allah has promised the men and women of the believers Gardens with rivers flowing under them, remaining in them timelessly, forever, and fine dwellings in the Gardens of Eden. But the greatest bliss is the Good Pleasure of Allah: that is the supreme felicity." (Quran, 9:72)

It is said in the Islamic lore that the Greatest of all rewards is to be in the presence of God in Paradise, and this will make people forget all other rewards...that is how great it will be.

There are many materialistic rewards that are offered to the believers in Paradise, and these are definitely mentioned in the Quran and the Prophetic Sayings. Let us look at one of the Prophetic Sayings in which Allah gives these materialistic rewards to the People of Paradise, and then Allah asks them:

"Are you well pleased now?" They would say: "Why should we not be pleased, O Lord, when You have given us what you have not given to any of your creations?" He (Allah) would, however, say: "May I not give you something even more excellent than that?" And they would say: "O Lord, what thing can be more excellent than this?" And He (Allah) would say: "I shall cause My Pleasure to alight upon you and I shall never be afterwards annoyed with you." (Saheeh Muslim, Book 040, Hadith Number 6787)

The Quran uses materialistic rewards like 72 virgins simply as an encouragement to do good on this earth, and it is the only type of reward that people can understand and relate to.

You have tried to portray the Islamic Paradise as non-spiritual, but this is not the case whatsoever. In one of the descriptions of Paradise, the Prophet (s) said of the People of Paradise: "There would be no dissension amongst them and no enmity in their hearts. Their hearts would be like one heart, glorifying Allah morning and evening." (Saheeh Muslim, Book 040, Hadith Number 6797)

So most of the time would be spent in spiritual bliss and prayer. The carnal rewards mentioned are so that people on this earth can relate to Paradise, and thereby strive for it. A Muslim man is commanded, for example, to lower his gaze and to refrain from looking at women on the street. In fact, if he looks at them (i.e. "checks them out"), it is said that he loses virgins in Paradise as a punishment. So the basic principle is that you are getting rewarded in Paradise for the sacrifices and struggles you had on earth. This is something noble, not something disgusting.

For a life of austerity and struggle, you get rewarded in Paradise. This is only fair. Muslims, like I've said, should not listen to music, mix with the opposite gender, etc etc...these are all very tough things to do, and the encouragement is given with materialistic things in Paradise. Many of the things forbidden to us in this life are promised to us in Paradise (in a sin-less form) if we just give it up here. So the *reason* that Allah promised men these virgins is because men must not womanize in this life. The same is the case with wine: it is forbidden in this life, but it is promised in the next life as a compensation. But the wine of Paradise will have its sin removed from it, and so will the sin from the women be removed.

If we have a woman Muslim here (And I thought we did) what's your take on this? Do you find the idea of your husband spending eternity sleeping with a couple dozen eternally virginal beautiful women at least a little disconcerting? Is the man's wife supposed to try and comete with all those women? Or are there male houri to keep her busy?

First of all, the Prophet (s) said that a believing woman who gets Paradise will be made 7,000 times more beautiful than the Hooris (virgins).

Secondly, the women should not complain at all, because Allah has promised them a great reward in Paradise, so great that they can't possibly be ungrateful. Allah says:

"And whoever does good deeds--whether male or female--and is a believer: these shall enter the Garden (of Paradise), and they shall not be dealt with an iota unjustly." (Quran, 4:194)

"I will not waste the work of a worker among you, whether male or female..." (Quran, 3:195)

"Whoever does good--whether male or female--and is a believer: We will most certainly make him live a happy life, and We will most certainly give them their reward for the best of what they did." (Quran, 16:97)

"Enter the garden, you and your wives; you [all] shall be made happy." (Quran, 43:70)

There are some women who wonder why Allah has promised men these Hoor and not the females. Allah reassures them:

"I have prepared for My righteous slaves (such excellent things) as no eye has ever seen, nor an ear has ever heard nor a human heart can ever think of." (Saheeh Bukhari, Volumn 009, Book 093, Hadith Number 589)

---------------------

Sexual fulfillment is considered a basic need and necessity. Therefore, it would not be appropriate for Allah to have left out mention of this in the rewards for Paradise. Likewise, other essential needs and necessities--such as food--have been mentioned in the descriptions of Paradise. Luxurious foods await the believers. The basic principle, again, is to eat sparingly on this earth (without gluttony) and get luxurious food in Paradise as a result. The sheer chastity and modesty that Islam commands its believers in regards to sex necessitates that the Muslims be rewarded in this category in the next life, and this is why Allah has promised the believers such rewards.

It should be noted that 72 virgins were promised the martyrs in battle. This was because men were forced to leave their wives behind and risk their lives for the defense of justice. Many of the men did not wish to leave their wives behind and had a difficult time controlling their sexual urge for months. Therefore, this promise was made to them: that their sacrifice would not go unanswered. There is a story in one of the Prophetic Sayings about a very ugly man who finally gets married to a woman, and somehow he managed to get one of the most beautiful girls in the city! Everyone is shocked that such an ugly man got such a pretty girl, and the guy is of course elated when the two are wed. Unfortunately, he is called off to battle right after the wedding, even before the first marriage night. He dies in battle. The people feel pity on him saying "what a shame" since he left behind such a wife, but the Prophet (s) smiles and says that one of the virgins of Paradise is greeting this soldier and this is his reward for his sacrifice.

The reason that the Quran and Prophetic Sayings did not mention women getting male virgins, is because this would contradict the extra level of modesty that is demanded of women in Islam. The Quran and Prophetic Sayings are shy when it comes to women, in this department, as it is not considered appropriate. This may seem strange to people of a Western culture in which these things are openly discussed, but this is not the case for Muslim cultures.

[Spiffor]

The guy is definitely not an average Muslim. He's a scholar, and I'd even say a geek. Most believers (of any faith) don't have a knowledge nearly as precise as his.

For someone whose life revolves around his "radical monotheistic" religion, his claims don't sound that outrageous to me (I'm at post #281). Notably, his claim that righteous/muslim people are better than the unbelievers is absolutely typical of a certain brand of Christianty.

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by Spiffor

The guy is definitely not an average Muslim. He's a scholar, and I'd even say a geek. Most believers (of any faith) don't have a knowledge nearly as precise as his.

For religion geeks, this level of knowledge is par for the course . And in families such as mine, this level of knowledge of your own religion is almost expected. We take religious awareness for granted (even from atheists or agnostics or whatever).

Originally posted by Spiffor

For someone whose life revolves around his "radical monotheistic" religion, his claims don't sound that outrageous to me (I'm at post #281). Notably, his claim that righteous/muslim people are better than the unbelievers is absolutely typical of a certain brand of Christianty.

The uncomfortable part is where ALL believers are better than ALL non-believers simply because they are believers.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by aneeshm
The uncomfortable part is where ALL believers are better than ALL non-believers simply because they are believers.

Ask any religious freak and he/she will all give exactly that answer. I can't recall any religion that says that non-belivers may be better persons because they are exactly that

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by aneeshm


For religion geeks, this level of knowledge is par for the course . And in families such as mine, this level of knowledge of your own religion is almost expected. We take religious awareness for granted (even from atheists or agnostics or whatever).

Yup. There are folks here who think Im well versed in Judaism. While Im pretty strong in Jewish history, on texts and stuff im pretty weak, not only compared to O jews, but to some of the most knowledgeable lay C Jews I know.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by BlackCat




Ask any religious freak and he/she will all give exactly that answer. I can't recall any religion that says that non-belivers may be better persons because they are exactly that

there are many rabbinic aphorism that say that study of torah without good deeds is not worthwhile. There is also a famous statement that the righteous among the gentiles are assured a place in the world to come.

[Arrian]

Noble savages



-Arrian