Thoughts on English independence

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
If Great Britain won't let Ireland go, why Scotland?

I'm going to be generous here and assume that Slowwy is referring to the six counties, and assume that he's not operating under the misapprehension that the whole of Ireland is still a British colony. Hmm - looking at the wording again, I'll also have to assume that he is aware that Britain is an equal partnership of the countries of England and Scotland, with the provinces of Wales and Northern Ireland attached. Hence, the implication that Scotland seeks release from itself is presumably some sort of typo.

Having established this, the differences between the independence aspirations of Scotland and N.Ireland can be clarifed. Scotland is a fundamental and leading constituent of the British State, N. Ireland is not. Furthermore, the roots of the pro-British population of N. Ireland are predominantly Scottish, not English.

Unfortunately the ingrained anti-English propaganda in the USA leads many to believe that teh evil English are cruelly oppressing their nice-guy celtic neighbours, and that Britain, the UK, and England are all the same thing.

WRT the six counties, the majority of people in England would have been happy to wave goodbye to this troublesome province long ago, were it not for all the predominantly ethnic Scottish pro-British inhabitants. In the event of Scottish independence, I've no idea where the Ulster proddies will see their alignment. Anywhere but Dublin, I expect. The best thing Ireland can do to persuade these folks to accept a united Ireland would be to push Papism as far as possible away from the Irish state. I'm sure that most English would be thrilled if N.Ireland was to become part of Scotland instead of the UK.

[Cort Haus]

Re: Re: Re: Thoughts on English independence

Originally posted by Dauphin
The English have tyranny by majority over Scotland whereas the votes of Scottish MPs will not have that big an impact to be honest.

What a load of crap. Drogue has already explained why on the first point but on the second - to say that Scottish MPs have little impact is a joke because the governing party is entirely dependent on Scottish votes.

[Cort Haus]

Genarally, I've always been in favour of the Union. I'm English, but admire Scotland as a great country that has produced an endless stream of great people inventing great things. I believe both our countries have mutually benefitted from the historical alliance.

However, the Lothian question is wrong, unfair and undemocratic. The Scottish parliament is a joke - a kind of parish council with loads of money but incredibly immature and unprofessional. The idea that Scottish voters can decide non-reciprocal policies to channel money from English taxpayers to Scottish subsidies is wrong.

I would prefer to see the Union equitably reformed, but if that won't happen, and the majority of Scots wish to go their seperate way then so be it.

[Krill]

I'd prefer it if Scotland just left, and we worked through the pain...

[Sandman]

WRT the six counties, the majority of people in England would have been happy to wave goodbye to this troublesome province long ago, were it not for all the predominantly ethnic Scottish pro-British inhabitants. In the event of Scottish independence, I've no idea where the Ulster proddies will see their alignment. Anywhere but Dublin, I expect. The best thing Ireland can do to persuade these folks to accept a united Ireland would be to push Papism as far as possible away from the Irish state. I'm sure that most English would be thrilled if N.Ireland was to become part of Scotland instead of the UK.

You seem to be blaming Scotland for the situation in Northern Ireland, based one side being 'ethnically Scottish', whatever that is. There's not a chance that an independent Scotland would want to hobble itself with NI, Scottish people are no more keen on them than the English.

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Sandman
You seem to be blaming Scotland for the situation in Northern Ireland, based one side being 'ethnically Scottish', whatever that is. There's not a chance that an independent Scotland would want to hobble itself with NI, Scottish people are no more keen on them than the English.

I'm not blaming Scotland for the situation in N. Ireland so much as pointing out a few truths. I'm sure you are as aware as anyone as to the Scottish heritage of the orange side of NI, and know exactly what I meant.

The interesting question of what happens to NI in the event of the ending of union remains though.

[Sandman]

I'm sure you are as aware as anyone as to the Scottish heritage of the orange side of NI, and know exactly what I meant.

Actually I don't. The entire nonsensical web of ideologies is as foreign to me as anything from the Balkans or the Middle East. I've never seen an Orangeman in my life, nor whatever their rivals are.

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Sandman
Actually I don't. The entire nonsensical web of ideologies is as foreign to me as anything from the Balkans or the Middle East. I've never seen an Orangeman in my life, nor whatever their rivals are.

It doesn't seem foreign to me, and not only because of part of my childhood spent in NI during the Troubles. Conflicts between protestants and catholics, however absurd and parochial they may appear to the modern sophisticated 'post-nationalist' (if I may use that term without being asked what it means) are part of British history. Is sectarianism in Glasgow foreign too?

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article...rthern-Ireland
During the 16th and 17th centuries, the most isolated and undisturbed part of Ireland was transformed by immigration from Britain. The narrow North Channel separates northeastern Ulster from southwestern Scotland. Whereas in the early Middle Ages there had been a significant eastward migration of people from Ulster to Scotland, a pronounced westward flow of Scots to Ulster began in the 16th century.

Anyway, we digress.

[Sandman]

Is sectarianism in Glasgow foreign too?

No, it's a myth.

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Starchild
Right, let's try to make some sense of this before I dash off to London in an hour:

While a chunk of the SNP vote will be from hardcore Scottish nationalists, a lot of this surge is from disaffected Labour and Lib Dem voters who want to punch New Labour in the face a bit over the Iraq War, the corruption, etc. Since the Tories are so anemic in Scotland these days, the SNP is the only alternative vote open.

I don't mean to threadjack but are you saying that even in a parlimentary system a tendancy has arisen for the voters to feel as if there are really just two viable parties for them to choose between even though they don't actually support the platforms of either of those parties?

Is a first past the post election system used and is this the true culprit in forcing an apparent lack of diverse choices of viable parties?

Is there no system at all in which voters can't end up feeling forced to choose between just two possibly very distasteful parties in elections?

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Cort Haus

Unfortunately the ingrained anti-English propaganda in the USA leads many to believe that teh evil English are cruelly oppressing their nice-guy celtic neighbours, and that Britain, the UK, and England are all the same thing.

What propaganda are you referring to? Mel Gibson Movies??

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Sandman
No, it's a myth.

According to one professor of sociology. I'd still say that 1% is still quite high. I'm sure this is an improvement on 20 years ago, when Old Firm passions were more violent. Peace in N. Ireland has probably helped, but the problem still exists.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1786945,00.html

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Geronimo
What propaganda are you referring to? Mel Gibson Movies??

Never noticed how often the bad guy in Hollywood movies is English? Even Sideshow Bob in The Simpsons is English.

Ever heard how IRA terrorism was largely funded by Americans?

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Cort Haus


Never noticed how often the bad guy in Hollywood movies is English? Even Sideshow Bob in The Simpsons is English.

Ever heard how IRA terrorism was largely funded by Americans?

The IRA funding wasn't a result of propaganda it was a result of arsehole irish immigrants and some of them raising generations of embittered terrorist sympathisers through simple parent to child 'propaganda'.

Most villains in most movies I've seen were neither english nor played by obviously english actors. Anyway Hollywood has produced films where the hero is supposed to be english like the Bond films.

[Victor Galis]

Ok, so supposing the question were not of a separate Scotland, but rather of establishing an English parliament with similar powers like that of the Scottish parliament, so that everyone is still on an equal footing: What would the general attitude towards that be?

(And finally where would the English Parliament sit? Presumably London, I'm thinking.)