Alexander the great airport

[Donegeal]

Someone post a map of where FYR Macedonia and where ancient Macedonia is/was.

[C0ckney]

Originally posted by Kropotkin
If Greece was a man, he would have a really small penis.

QFT.

[Dinner]

FYROM


Ancient Macedonia

[Provost Harrison]

Absolutely, just like its inhabitants. Including the women!

[Dinner]

The Macedonian Kingdom controlled by Phillip II is basically Greek Macedonia while the southern portion of FYROM used to be a culturally pseudo-Greek area of independent Macedonian tribes. The Slavic peoples didn't migrate into the area until the end of the Roman period.

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by Kropotkin
I don't remember who it was, but years ago there was a greecian here at the OT that claimed that his people was (sort of) prepositioned to democracy due to their ancient history. Democracy is in their genes or something. Obviously so as they had a junta until the mid 1970s.

And that Junta was supported by the Citadel of Democracy

[Barnabas]

All ancient writings in fyrom are written in greek

[MarkG]

Originally posted by Zkribbler
and that Junta was supported by the Citadel of Democracy

true, but Clinton semi-apologized for that in his visit to Greece 10 years ago. so it's ok

http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9911/20/clinton.trip.02/index.html?eref=sitesearch

"When the junta took over in 1967 here," Clinton said, "the United States allowed its interests in prosecuting the Cold War to prevail over its interest, I should say its obligation, to support democracy, which was, after all, the cause for which we fought the Cold War. It is important that we acknowledge that."

[MarkG]

Oerdin,

the map you posted is wrong.
The Ancient Macedonia area is the one during Philip's rule, not the fabricated black line shown in the Fyromian propaganda site

For example, Paionians were not a Macedonian tribe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paionia

Btw, from the site you took your map from, here is anothe map of where the fyromian minorities in Greece and Bulgaria supposedly live


the page quotes

the Macedonian minority in Greece numbers about 1,000,000 people

Greece has a population of 10-11mil. this means that the greek state manages to keep a 10% of it's population voiceless. i'm sorry to say, but the greek state is not that efficient....

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by MarkG
Oerdin,

the map you posted is wrong.
The Ancient Macedonia area is the one during Philip's rule, not the fabricated black line shown in the Fyromian propaganda site

For example, Paionians were not a Macedonian tribe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paionia

Btw, from the site you took your map from, here is anothe map of where the fyromian minorities in Greece and Bulgaria supposedly live


the page quotes

the Macedonian minority in Greece numbers about 1,000,000 people

Greece has a population of 10-11mil. this means that the greek state manages to keep a 10% of it's population voiceless. i'm sorry to say, but the greek state is not that efficient....

The CIA factbook says Greeces ethnic minorities make up 2% of the population including ethnic Turks. The govt of Greece denies having any ethnic minorities, according to the same source.

Heres what Human Rights Watch says

"The Greek government views the term "Macedonian" as a geographic term that describes all Greek citizens living in the Macedonian region in northern Greece. The government denies the assertions of the ethnic Macedonians in Greece that they are are a minority group; officials refer to them as "Slavophone Greeks" or "bilinguals." In July 1993, a fact-finding mission made up of representatives of three organizations, the Danish Helsinki Committee, Minority Rights Group-Greece, and Human Rights Watch/Helsinki, went to northern Greece to look into the situation of the Macedonian minority there. The climate of fear was striking; a large number of people asked the mission not to use their names, for fear of losing their civil service jobs or being harassed by police. The mission also journeyed to Bitola in the southern region of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia to interview ethnic Macedonian political refugees from Greece who have been denied the right to regain their citizenship or property (taken from them after the Greek Civil War) or to visit relatives and friends in northern Greece. "

[Varwnos]

Thessalonike (where I, and i think MarkG as well) live, has more than 1 million people, and the rest of greek Macedonia has little over another million, so it would be really hard to keep down a hostile slav minority which would be a vast majority anywhere else (since obviously there arent any slav macedonians to be found here, at least i have never met one).
Interestingly in that map Thessalonike seems to be half slav-macedonian

Btw, if the Cia factbook names the muslim minority in Thrace as "turks" then it seems that it is against the treaty of Lausannes (1922) which specifically names them as "muslim". Had they been turks then they would have been exchanged, along with the rest of the populations.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by varwnos
Thessalonike (where I, and i think MarkG as well) live, has more than 1 million people, and the rest of greek Macedonia has little over another million, so it would be really hard to keep down a hostile slav minority which would be a vast majority anywhere else (since obviously there arent any slav macedonians to be found here, at least i have never met one).
Interestingly in that map Thessalonike seems to be half slav-macedonian

Btw, if the Cia factbook names the muslim minority in Thrace as "turks" then it seems that it is against the treaty of Lausannes (1922) which specifically names them as "muslim". Had they been turks then they would have been exchanged, along with the rest of the populations.

IIUC the CIA factbook attempts to report facts on the ground, not to reconcile them to the classifications of 80 year old treaties.

[Varwnos]

Sure, however i am pointing the fact that Turkey signed the Lausannes treaty. If Turkey wanted to call the muslims in greek Thrace "turks" then they would have been sent off, like the rest of the populations between the countries. The treaty has not been cancelled, and i do not see how it could either.
And they are named as a minority in Greece, by the same treaty. It is just that they are a religious minority and not an ethnic one.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by varwnos
Sure, however i am pointing the fact that Turkey signed the Lausannes treaty. If Turkey wanted to call the muslims in greek Thrace "turks" then they would have been sent off, like the rest of the populations between the countries. The treaty has not been cancelled, and i do not see how it could either.
And they are named as a minority in Greece, by the same treaty. It is just that they are a religious minority and not an ethnic one.

The Turks may have had reasons for not wanting to call them Turks at the time. That doesnt mean that today they themselves dont consider themselves Turks. The treaty may bind Turkey, but it doesnt override reality.

[Kropotkin]

Originally posted by lord of the mark The treaty may bind Turkey, but it doesnt override reality.

Ethnic identity is a very fluid kind of reality. Isn't that really what the threads original issue's really about?