Rolling up Al Qaeda in Somalia

[dannubis]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


Youre the guy who thinks you air drop a single sniper in.

Have you ever actually been paradropped? In a place where there are people with guns who want to kill you?

No and neither have you

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by dannubis


yes those are of course typical examples of in-out raids that would be required to kill a few designated persons

*psst* sarcasm

You think the Russians dont try to get designated persons in Grozny?

A raid to get a designated person, in a place where the other sides snipers can be located in ANY building can be done by having ground troops level the buildins. Or it can be done by letting the snipers take out the troops. In which case it may well not succeed at all. And will give the other guy incentive to make you think theres a high value target in a given place, to set up the ambush.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by dannubis


No and neither have you

Precisely. Which is why i dont discount the difficulties and risks in doing that.

[lord of the mark]

NYT:


Mogadishu exploded in violence on Wednesday morning after unknown insurgents attacked a transitional government barracks during the night and soldiers responded by sealing off large swaths of the city, searching house to house for guns.

The weapons raids immediately provoked stiff resistance, and squads of Ethiopian soldiers and troops loyal to the transitional government poured into the streets, where they battled outraged residents and a handful of masked insurgents. From dawn to afternoon, the pop of gunfire and the boom of explosives reverberated across Mogadishu, Somalia’s reliably chaotic capital.

But it is difficult to tell how many people here actually support the growing insurgency against Somalia’s transitional government and the Ethiopian troops backing it. On Wednesday, a group of masked men stood on the steps of a Mogadishu mosque and proclaimed themselves to be Somalia’s new freedom fighters. They were met by jeers.
“Why can’t you hit anything, then?” shouted one woman, referring to a botched grenade attack that missed the Ethiopians and demolished a house. “Were you scared? Were your fingers trembling?”

Regardless of the insurgents’ popularity, or lack thereof, violence is increasing. And the transitional government, which entered the capital two weeks ago for the first time since it formed in 2004, now faces a critical test: how quickly, if at all, can it pacify a notoriously dangerous city, bristling with military-grade weaponry and split by deep clan divisions?


Most of the violence on Wednesday was concentrated in strongholds of the Ayr, a powerful clan-based group closely connected to the Islamist movement that had controlled much of the country until the Ethiopian military entered the fray last month. On the other hand, neighborhoods of the Darod clan, the clan of Abdullahi Yusuf Ahmed, the transitional president, were quiet. Many Darod members said they were happy about the weapons raids, especially the ones in Ayr neighborhoods.

Clan rivalries have been the curse of Somalia ever since there was a Somalia. They are the cause of its civil wars, its famines and its state of suspended decay. It seems that this new chapter is no different. The insurgents are still a mysterious bunch, but they are widely suspected to be members of the ousted Islamist movement.

After being routed, the Islamists vowed to fight on as an underground army. As each night passes, more government troops are attacked. On Tuesday, insurgents launched one of their boldest strikes, firing rocket-propelled grenades at an army barracks downtown. Witnesses said at least two soldiers died, and the insurgents got away. But on Wednesday, residents said that Ethiopian soldiers were able to confiscate some guns and arrest several people suspected of being insurgents.


Doctors at Medina Hospital said Wednesday that in the past 24 hours 15 people had been admitted for gunshot wounds, including 3 government soldiers. The violence this past week has filled all of the hospital’s 65 beds, leaving bleeding men and women curled up on the floor and under acacia trees in the courtyard. “This is not something that is going to stop,” said Dahir Muhammad, a hospital official. “Until the Ethiopians leave, people will be determined to kill them.”

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Chemical Ollie

That's the reason you should not bomb terrorists. Bombing is a terrorist method. The victims could care less if what killed them was a stealth bomber or a suicide bomber, they would still be as dead. No moral difference.

Sorry Ollie but this is retarded.

[dannubis]

Originally posted by lord of the mark



1) You think the Russians dont try to get designated persons in Grozny?

2) A raid to get a designated person, in a place where the other sides snipers can be located in ANY building can be done by having ground troops level the buildins. Or it can be done by letting the snipers take out the troops. In which case it may well not succeed at all. 3) And will give the other guy incentive to make you think theres a high value target in a given place, to set up the ambush.

1) Obviously, but I don't remember anyone defending their methods...

2) That is a risk you have to take and maybe... evaluate that the cost to take out the target in that setting are too high

3) True, but the same reasoning can apply for the airstrike option yes ?

[Last Conformist]

I should probably have said "street fighting" rather than "street battles", but it was a toss away comment anyway.

Point is, AQ leadership figures are non-stupid men with prices on their heads. Non-stupid men with prices on their head don't go around parading the streets with t-shirts saying "TARGET". They keep a low profile and surround themselves with bodyguards that, if the should get killed, will immediately metamorphose into "civilians". Any attempt to get at them with men on the grounds is more than likely to result in utter failure and/or a big pile of dead civilians and "civilians".

[Dinner]

The BBC story is saying that most of the Somalis in that village were there because they were fleeing from the Ethiopians. They didn't live in that village and instead they were a mix of Islamic fighters and a few Al Qaeda types. The bombing didn't kill its primary targets but did at least bag some secondary hangers on. It's pathetic that some of you are whining over those dirt bags getting to see Allah. The world is a better place with a few less Islamic militants.

The key point to this raid is that precision guided bombs are only as good if you know exactly where to point them instead of 20 ft to the left or right of where the guy is. In cases like this I think the WW2 approach of "being sure" and leveling the entire area would have brought superior results. We'd have gotten the Al Qaeda guys we were targeting plus rolled up more of the hangers on. The mud huts of villages supporting Islamic militants shouldn't even be a consideration.

[Dinner]

Alternatively reviving Operation Pheniox to assassinate a large percentage of the Islamists leaders who we don't like could also work. It would be much more difficult in a desert then in a tropical rain forest though.

[Dinner]

It seems like many of the dead really were foreign fighters. The town was supposedly a rally point for retreating Islamists and the Ethiopian Army has come in and taken most of the dead as well as the wounded who were in the area. Supposedly there are a large number of British passport holders of Islamic decent who are among the dead. It's pretty clear they were jihadis trying to fight their holy war.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6247111.stm

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Oerdin
It seems like many of the dead really were foreign fighters. The town was supposedly a rally point for retreating Islamists and the Ethiopian Army has come in and taken most of the dead as well as the wounded who were in the area. Supposedly there are a large number of British passport holders of Islamic decent who are among the dead. It's pretty clear they were jihadis trying to fight their holy war.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6247111.stm

No they were clearly just peaceloving Somali villagers who just happened to have UK passports, but preferred to remain in Somalia rather than moving to London.

Top ten reasons a Somali with a british passport isnt in the UK:
1. Its, you know, January. Who wants to be in London in January?
2. Not moving to UK till Gordon Brown takes over from Tony Blair
3. Really cant stand "red Ken"
4. Doesnt like going to mosques run by Pakistanis
5. At least Somalia doesnt have congestion charges
6. Afraid of football hooligans
7. Doesnt want kids exposed to post modern sculptures in Trafalgar Square
8. Saw too many "Masterpiece Theater" reruns
9. Doesnt like kidney pie


and the top reason

10. Is protesting the Princess Diana coverup

[Last Conformist]

Somehow, I'm not entirely ready to take the Ethiopians on their word that there were no civilian deaths.

[DanS]

LC should be dropped into the zone to investigate.

[Last Conformist]

You'd trust me?

[DanS]

Of course not. This is merely a short trip for your benefit.