Chavez once again porves he's a tin pot dictator in the making.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Flubber
Arms ?? I usually wouldn't advocate violence but since you are talking about eliminating me , I probably would take up arms in a desperate attempt at self-preservation.

No Flubber, you misunderstand me. I don't want to kill you. I'm sorry you got that idea. I just believe in revolution.

THats my problem. You seem to be saying that your society can work only if people have no choice.
Meanwhile capitalism has worked in a very competitive environment.

You always state tragedy so nicely with terms like "competitive environment." Maybe it's very nice for you, but not for us. Personally for me I just have a very bad taste for that kind of world. It's like eating a **** sandwich.

Its not perfect but it holds its own

Well, it's far from perfect and true.

Take Chavez. Can he make his country a success in the long run. Assume

1. Neither the US nor anyone else will invade him as long as he doesn't employ his military outside his borders.

2. Other countries will trade with him on a reasonable basis

Now he has the resources on Vnezuela behind him and enough personal popularity to force through some reforms. Could Venezuela succeed as a communist state?

I appreciate Ven. is a tough one since it hasn't always had the longest lived stable governments but then again, there are tougher countries to try

Chavez had internal enemies first, and the US is going to do everything they can to help them get back in power.

Chavez is doing a lot to build relations with other countries and that will help, but it seems to be expensive. Hopefully it will pay off.

To answer your question shortly his success does certainly depend on how the rest of the world either supports him or just does not support his enemies.

Again, just so you know, he's not really communist though, he just supports the poor in his country. Unfortunately that gets him a lot of enemies, so in that respect he is like on.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Flubber
So che are you acknowledging the complete futility of your movement then?

No, I don't. I acknowledge it will be very difficult, but since so much of the world lives desperate lives scarcely better than that of animals, it's criminal not to try.

We don't need all the world at the same time or at once. All we need is to continue to grow, to continue to spread. At times we will have to halt, maybe occasionally retreat. We certainly don't need a simultaneous worldwide revolution. I have, perhaps, been rather unclear in the past on this point. That is my fault. I never really thought about what part of my point was confusing.

What happened with the USSR is that when the revolutions outside Russia failed, they decided they could do it all on their own, that they didn't need to spread the revolution. I think that was an ideological maneuver by the bureaucracy. Rather than spend effort and resources on spreading international revolution, they could make a good life for themselves and use the international movement as their foreign agents. What revolutions occurred in the world happened in spite of the Soviets, not because of them.

[chequita guevara]

So, I got to meet a comrade from the Venezuelan trade union movement tonight. Despite a severe language barrier, it was quite interesting. This is the fist time I've met a foreign comrade and I wasn't bored out of my skull.

Some quick impressions before I start to write something longer.

Chavez it seems, has found himself in the undesirable position of riding a tiger. He mounted the tiger to scare his enemies, but having mounted it, he cannot get off without being eaten. And much to his chagrin, he finds the tiger will go where it wants, and that he must pretend to be giving it directions so that he looks like he is still in charge.

The labor movement in Venezuela is very left wing. The largest current in the major trade union federation is C-CURA, which seems to be led by Trotskyists. This is why Chavez appointed a "Trotskyist" labor minister and declared himself a Trotskyist. Not because he believes it, but because he is trying to co-opt it. It ain't working.

At the same time he is trying to silence criticism from the left by creating a new venue for workers in the factories, a kind of soviet system. Even the Bolivarians in the trade unions are opposed to this, preferring instead to keep their unions independent of the government.

Also, the Marxists are remaining outside the left unity party that Chavez is trying to create. They see the party as a party of the state, and thus they have no business being part of it.

[chequita guevara]

Okay, longer post.

The Oil Industry
As in many 3rd world states, corruption is rife in the state oil company. In order to get a contract, there is under the table money. Money is siphoned out in other ways. Many of those calling themselves Chavistas in the government oil company are simply opportunists looking for some loose cash. What distinguishes them from the anti-Chavez managers is their stance on Chavez. Which is to say, they are united on stealing from the government, the workers, and from foreigners doing business with them.

The government sees this as a problem. This is what the so-called, "political officers" are going into the company to stamp out. Not anti-Chavismo, but graft and corruption, from those both for and against Chavez. We'll see how resistant these investigators are to corruption themselves.

After the lockout, some 18,000 managers, engineers, etc. were fired from the company. This is probably a major source of the oil expertise leaving the country that Flubber mentions. Expect more as people find they can no longer steal the country blind.

The common assumption among many is that Chavez is able to fund his programs because of the current price of oil. Apparently, Venezuela signed some long term oil contracts back in the 90s. The price at which Venezuela sells oil is not the current price, but the old price. Venezuela is not awash in petrodollars.

The Electric Company
The American corporation which bought a share in the Caracas electric company bought its shared 40% undervalued, but is being paid current market price. It was also paid some $600 million last year, I didn't understand why. Don't weep for the Americans. They've made a hefty profit off of this sale.

Political Repression in Venezuela
The peasantry is solidly pro-Chavez. 140 peasant leaders were murdered last year by right-wing paramilitaries. In the city of Marida last year, right-wing paras seized the university.

The Unions
The old main union federation, the CVT, supported the employer strike in 2003. As a result, the CVT is about ten percent of its former strength. The workers voted with their feet to create a new federation, the UNT.

From biggest to smallers the main currents in the UNT are:
C-CURA, heavily influenced, maybe led by, Trostskists
CTR, social democrats
FBT, Chavistas
Labor Autonomy, left-liberals
the government workers union

Despite C-CURA having the most influence, or rather because of, the leaders of the new federation have refused to hold elections, because they are in the minority and would lose power. C-CURA continues to push for elections. The minority deflected the push last year claiming that they needed to organize to help elect Chavez. The vast majority of the workers are pro-Chavez, as evidenced by the presidential elections, so the deflection worked. C-CURA is now demanding union elections since Chavez has been elected.

C-CURA is pushing for factory occupations and nationalizations without compensation being paid. They are opposed to the bureaucracy and to the corruption. Chavez has been talking about socialism and C-CURA is saying, okay let's do it, NOW! Since Chavez doesn't want to do this, he finds himself trying to hold back the very forces he has unleashed. Hence his sudden proclamation of Trotskyism. If the Trotskyists are leading, he will try and position himself in front.

Chavez proposed workers councils in the factories. To what end I missed, but it seems to have been to try and channel energy away from the UNT, which the Trotskyists will likely end up leading. Both the base of the social democratic tendency and the Chavista tendency rejected this outright. The workers, while having illusions in Chavez, also seek to maintain the independence of their unions.

The Occupied Factories
So far, only five factories have been re-occupied. Four of them were established as co-ops. Under Venezuelan law, that means that they no longer are allowed to have unions or other labor protections. After all, if the workers are all individual owners, then the union would be protecting them from themselves. In practice, this has turned out to be a disaster, but why I didn't hear.

Once factory, Sanitarios Marcay, they make bathroom fixtures (toilets, tile, etc), is under workers direct control. What I understand this to mean is that rather than electing a board to run the factory for them, they decide themselves as a group how to run things. The government, however, is not giving them any support. The comrade I met was actually here in the U.S. to help establish support from American comrades and workers and unions. I have a pamphlet, but I don't read Spanish. I might transcribe it later.

There are more factories the workers wish to seize, but the laws establish strict rules about how these proceed. The government has to take the initiative, and it isn't. There are a lot of anti-Chavistas still in the government. There are also a lot of opportunists who are simply trying to enrich themselves by claiming they are for Chavez. The workers in Venezuela are trying to establish connections to the workers in Argentina, where hundreds and thousands of workplaces have been seized by the workers. It's slow going, since the Venezuelan media hasn't mentioned that much about it.

Speaking of Argentina
The second biggest business in Venezuela is the iron industry. Chavez isn't touching it because it is half owned by Argentina or Argentinians.

So What is Chavez Up To?
Well, it's not the overthrow of capitalism. Rather, Chavez is trying to renegotiate Venezuela's place in world capitalism. In the vein of many previous nationalists, Chavez seeks to break Venezuela free from American imperialism. To do this he needed to break the hold of the comprador bourgeoisie, who owed its privileges and position to its ties with the U.S.

So he sought to establish an independent political base among the poor, the peasants, and the workers. But having let that genie out of the bottle, he finds he can't control it as easily as he thought. Now he must walk a tightrope between not offending the U.S. so greatly we decide to invade (or blockade or embargo), but not holding things back so much that the workers decide they can have Chavismo sin Chavez.

[chequita guevara]

On the Rule By Decree Law

This is for you, Oerdin.

First, the President is bound by the constitution. He can only issue so-called “law-decrees� in the areas named by the National Assembly, in the time limit the Assembly imposes, and that are consistent with the constitution. In other words, he cannot arbitrarily order someone’s arrest or do away with basic civil rights, for example. Some of the laws even need to be submitted to the Supreme Court, which vets the law for its constitutionality.

Second, contrary to popular belief, even though Chavez supporters control all branches of the state, law-decrees can be reversed by the most important power of all: the citizens. That is, law-decrees can be rescinded by popular vote. According to Venezuela’s 1999 constitution all laws can be submitted to a referendum if at least 10% of registered voters request such a referendum. Law decrees have an even lower signature requirement, of only 5% of registered voters (800, 000 out of 16 million registered voters).[3]

Third, the National Assembly may also modify or rescind law-decrees, at any time, should it feel the need to do so. This is quite unlike the enabling law in the U.S., known as the “Fast Track� law, where the president may sign international treaties that are automatically binding and not open to revision or rescinding by the population.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
For those who care, Venezuela bought out the American investor in the Caracas power company.

I know nothing about this proticular case but I know that previous "buyouts" went along these lines:

Chavez: I will buy your company for $X.

Company: Just last year we bought it for $10X. $X is not a fair price and we won't sell it for $X.

Chavez: You'll accept $X or I will simply take over the company and give you nothing.

Company: That's theft! The courts would never allow it.

Chavez: I control the courts! Now accept $X or get nothing.

Company: Reluctantly takes $X because at least they get something.

That's not exactly the fair transaction Che was trying to portray.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
On the Rule By Decree Law

This is for you, Oerdin.

If you are going to bother justifying the unjustifiable then please find a source other then CHAVEZ'S OWN PROPAGANDA SITE!

That web site is owned and directly opporated by the Venezuelan government. Of course it never has anything negative to say about Chavez and is even less unbiased then Fox News. Complete garbage.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Chavez: I will buy your company for $X.

Company: Just last year we bought it for $10X. $X is not a fair price and we won't sell it for $X.

Chavez: You'll accept $X or I will simply take over the company and give you nothing.

Do you have any source which has calculated an objective value of the company, not just what the company was asking for?

edit:

If you are talking about ExxonMobile they could have renegotiated their contract like most of the other oil companies anyway. If they sold out that was their choice.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
The common assumption among many is that Chavez is able to fund his programs because of the current price of oil. Apparently, Venezuela signed some long term oil contracts back in the 90s. The price at which Venezuela sells oil is not the current price, but the old price. Venezuela is not awash in petrodollars.

I think that's why they renegotiated the contracts.

Anyway, thanx for the good post Che.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Oerdin
If you are going to bother justifying the unjustifiable then please find a source other then CHAVEZ'S OWN PROPAGANDA SITE!

That web site is owned and directly opporated by the Venezuelan government. Of course it never has anything negative to say about Chavez and is even less unbiased then Fox News. Complete garbage.

No it is not. It is owned by a journalist, who just happens to be rather pro-Chavez, as I pointed out before. This again shows your complete ignorance. If you're going to spout ignorance, at least both to read your own thread so that you can stop yourself from saying things which have already been refuted.

In any event, you completely ignore the substance of the article to attack the owner. Even if the site was owned by Venezuela, which it is not., it wouldn't change the facts about how these laws work.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Oerdin
I know nothing about this proticular case but I know that previous "buyouts" went along these lines:

[typical Oerdin blather]

Really, do you have any evidence for that assertion or is it just like everything else you say about Venezuela, pulled out of your ass?

And even if it was true, so what? The purpose of socialism isn't to compensate the wealthy. It's to expropriate them. Your right to exploit is not recognized by us.

[Fake Boris]

Originally posted by Oerdin
If you are going to bother justifying the unjustifiable then please find a source other then CHAVEZ'S OWN PROPAGANDA SITE!

Curious, what's your source for this?

[chequita guevara]

Political Declaration of the Party of Revolution and Socialism

The comrade I met with is from this party.

[chequita guevara]

Life Before Chavez

The privatizations ravaged society. Between 1988 and 1997, the number of available jobs dropped by 15%. In 1999, the number of workers living on small jobs, working under the table, represented 53% of the total number of jobs, compared to 35% in 1980. Between 1978 and 1994 the value of the minimum wage dropped by two-thirds. Government funding for social programs dropped by 40%, while funding for education and housing was cut by 70%!

Between 1984 and 1995, the population living below the poverty line grew from 36% to 66%. The share of national income for the poorest 40% of the population was reduced from 19.1% to 14.7%, while the share for the very wealthiest increased from 21.8% to 32.8%. In 1987, the richest 5% had an income 42 times higher than that of the poorest 5% of the population. Ten years later, it was 53 times higher! This general degradation also weighed on the Confederation of Venezuelan Workers (CTV), which barely opposed the privatizations. Between 1988 and 1995, the percentage of workers unionized dropped by half, to 13.5%. There were some militant workers and Causa R (Radical Cause) tried to recruit them. This organization came out of the Communist Party in the 1970s and was inspired by the Workers Party of Brazil. Their militancy in some factories and slums won them some success in elections in the beginning of the 1990s. They later rallied to the side of Chavez.

http://www.the-spark.net/csart513.html

[techumseh]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Really, do you have any evidence for that assertion or is it just like everything else you say about Venezuela, pulled out of your ass?

And even if it was true, so what? The purpose of socialism isn't to compensate the wealthy. It's to expropriate them. Your right to exploit is not recognized by us.

Go CG!