Americas first Muslim cabinet member?

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by snoopy369
More importantly, when the heck did Cort Haus become the crazy tinfoil hat one, and aneeshm post a single line of support for another poster?

My world is turned upside down

I'm not a 'crazy tinfoil hatter', and I strongly resent the abusive nature of your ad hominem attack. I've been opposed to US/EU policy and lies on the former Yugoslavia for 15 years, and consider it to be a continuation of the policies of the Axis powers in WW2. Standing up and opposing that in public is a difficult and dangerous task, but someone has to do it.

I know I'll get abuse like you're dishing out, but any decent and principled person should stand up for what they believe to be right. I don't enjoy it, in fact I hate it, and it causes me no end of misery, severe depression and anguish, but that's the cross I have to bear.

If you really want your world turned upside down, then open your mind to the possibility that just about everything you thought you knew about the wars that accompanied the break up of Yugoslavia is wrong. If you think I am otherwise sane, then consider also that my viewpoint on this issue could be sane, honest, and principled.

The Big Lies are are the most widely believed, remember, as the Nazis understood so well.

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Ned
And to some extent, Afghanistan was a serious factor in the fall of communism in the USSR. While Reagan like to take all the credit for applying pressure on the commies, it really started with Carter. History should note this and give him, Z.B. and K the credit they are due.

To me, Republican or Democrat doesn't make any difference when it comes to continuity in Foreign Policy. Once you begin to see the power of these guys like Z.B and K it becomes very clear. Whoever you vote for, the government gets in.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Cort Haus


It's OK, you didn't offend me.

I'm just pointing out how the default language used in Western reportage, analysis and discussion instrinsically skews things in one direction.

Actually I seem to recall lots of mention in the press of Kosovar Albanians, ethnic Albanians, etc. Dont judge the western press by the short cuts of a net poster.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Cort Haus


I'm not a 'crazy tinfoil hatter', and I strongly resent the abusive nature of your ad hominem attack. I've been opposed to US/EU policy and lies on the former Yugoslavia for 15 years, and consider it to be a continuation of the policies of the Axis powers in WW2. Standing up and opposing that in public is a difficult and dangerous task, but someone has to do it.

I know I'll get abuse like you're dishing out, but any decent and principled person should stand up for what they believe to be right. I don't enjoy it, in fact I hate it, and it causes me no end of misery, severe depression and anguish, but that's the cross I have to bear.

If you really want your world turned upside down, then open your mind to the possibility that just about everything you thought you knew about the wars that accompanied the break up of Yugoslavia is wrong. If you think I am otherwise sane, then consider also that my viewpoint on this issue could be sane, honest, and principled.

The Big Lies are are the most widely believed, remember, as the Nazis understood so well.

maybe it was different in the UK, but here in the US there was vibrant debate about Balkan policy. Ned, perhaps, was not privy to it, but there was abundant sympathy for the Serb POV, from the right, both isolationists like Pat Buchanan, and hard line conservatives like Newt Gingrich, to the far left. And yes, its also common currency among ultra-Likud Zionists, whom I may have more personal exposure to than most here. I think you are mistaken if you think the broad structure of your arguments is new to me - in fact its an approach Ive been aware of since, well, the mid 90s. I debated Kosovo (with a Likudnik acquaintance) WHILE the NATO bombing was taking place.

The only things you bring I dont know are a few details of Bosnian politics, etc. All of which, given your own ideological certainty, I feel a need to fact check. I dont think you are any longer are capable of persuading me to change my mind by arguing - at most you will persuade me to read more details on the subject, from books I consider to be relatively unbiased.

[Arrian]

Cort, I have a question. Assuming that your view is the correct one...

To what point and purpose? What nefarious purpose was behind it all? Or do you think it was incompetance?

-Arrian

[Az]

well, for me ( I agree with him), I see the goal being the destruction and/or weakening of any remains of the old regime in Belgrade...

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Az
well, for me ( I agree with him), I see the goal being the destruction and/or weakening of any remains of the old regime in Belgrade...

hey Az, given the title of this thread, you know theres another potential thread about a countrys first Muslim cabinet minister. Care to start it?

And are you going to keep Peretz' pic after Labour dumps him? Maybe you could put up Barak's picture (Ehud, not Obama)

[Arrian]

Originally posted by Az
well, for me ( I agree with him), I see the goal being the destruction and/or weakening of any remains of the old regime in Belgrade...

To what end?

-Arrian

[Az]

Barak I hate that dick. The good news for Peretz is that he will probably be revived politically, much like Barak and Netaniyahu, after a couple of years in political no-man's land.
I'd vote for Labor with Ayalon, though.

as to Israel's first muslim cabinet member - meh. He's not much of a personality, so I don't care either way.

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by Ned
And to some extent, Afghanistan was a serious factor in the fall of communism in the USSR. While Reagan like to take all the credit for applying pressure on the commies, it really started with Carter. History should note this and give him, Z.B. and K the credit they are due.

It really started with Truman, who began a policy of containment. Eventually, the Evil Empire collapsed because of its own inherent, internal rot.

[VetLegion]

Arrian, the typical story by the leftists is that Yugoslavia was broken up from outside because the West was jealous of its successful communism and wanted it dead

The truth is Yugoslavia collapsed inwards because, once the dictator was gone, there was nothing strong enough to keep it together. It was an artificial creation (it was created through brutal force, not democratic voting) and that is why it fell so fast. Good riddance.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by VetLegion
Arrian, the typical story by the leftists is that Yugoslavia was broken up from outside because the West was jealous of its successful communism and wanted it dead

Never ever heard that.

The truth is Yugoslavia collapsed inwards because, once the dictator was gone, there was nothing strong enough to keep it together. It was an artificial creation (it was created through brutal force, not democratic voting) and that is why it fell so fast. Good riddance.

QFT

[VetLegion]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
I'm not a 'crazy tinfoil hatter', and I strongly resent the abusive nature of your ad hominem attack. I've been opposed to US/EU policy and lies on the former Yugoslavia for 15 years, and consider it to be a continuation of the policies of the Axis powers in WW2. Standing up and opposing that in public is a difficult and dangerous task, but someone has to do it.

I know (more or less) your position from previous threads on this subject.

I'm curious what you would have done if you got to decide US/EU policy in 1990? It's a serious question. I can tell you right away that if you think outsiders could have prevented Yugoslavia from breaking up, you're wrong.

To an outsider it might have looked as if it was one country and one people. In reality, you could tell a Croat from a Serb from a muslim simply by their first name. Percentage of mixed marriages was in the single digits. Economic system was in collapse. Nationalism was always in the background, more or less suppressed. People went to jail for singing nationalistic songs at weddings. In 1971 Croatian students rose up asking for more decentralization. In 1972 Croatian emigrants infiltrated deep into center of Yugoslavia and tried to lead an armed revolt. It didn't work but it took the feds two weeks to eliminate them.

In 1980 Tito died and from then on it was a matter of time. Kosovo was restless, fueling Serb nationalists, which in turn fueled others (but only fueled - they were always there).

With enough force, you could have quelled all that. But Tito left no heir. The economy was in shambles, wrecked by permanent high inflation. Yugoslavia took on huge debt to finance megalomanic infrastructure projects, steel mills and similar white elephants. Hundreds of thousands of people went to work abroad and their remittances kept things going. Federal government was clueless. Slovenia and Croatia, the biggest contributors to the economy, wanted more control over their budgets.

In 1988 (I think) Yugoslavia got a new prime minister (Markovic) who was intent on economic reforms, convertibility of dinar, shock therapy and all that. He managed to do some, but it was too little too late. The only hope for Yugoslavia to survive was to decentralize further. Slovenians offered something along the lines of a confederation. But this was refused. When the opportunity came national communist parties called for elections and the rest is history.

What chance for West to influence things? Not much. USSR broke up, Czechoslovakia broke up, Yugoslavia broke up. Thus was proven once again that nationalism is one of the strongest forces in history.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Zkribbler


It really started with Truman, who began a policy of containment. Eventually, the Evil Empire collapsed because of its own inherent, internal rot.

Combination, really.

But, give Truman credit too. I know history has. He ended his presidency with almost universal disdain. Now he is regarded highly.

[Ned]

Originally posted by VetLegion


Thus was proven once again that nationalism is one of the strongest forces in history.

Agreed.

Forcing two diffierent populations to live under the same government is nearly impossible without a lot of force (Roman Empire) or a form of Federalism (United States). But even with the US, we eventually fought a major civil war that ended in the use of force.

I have heard Kissinger argue for governments spanning multiple populations. He made this argument when we had a national debate just before Kosovo. I thought he was wrong a the time.

A lot of the problems of the world today were caused by drawing lines on maps by imperial powers that forced two opposing people or tribes to live under one roof. Iraq is a current example.