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  • #31
    Originally posted by lord of the mark

    Perhaps Aneeshim and Ned think we would be better off if the Soviet empire had not been brought down, or perhaps they are willing to conflate Al Qaeeda with its bitterest enemies (not Baathists, as some here would claim).
    WTF, my dear man?!

    I'm a staunch hater of communism. But WTF does that have to do with the topic?

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by aneeshm


      WTF, my dear man?!

      I'm a staunch hater of communism. But WTF does that have to do with the topic?
      Khalilzad was involved in US policy making on Afghanistan during the Reagan admin, when we were giving money and arms to Afghans, many motivated by Islam, to fight the USSR. Cort Haus is supporting the meme that "US funding created Al Qaeeda" and is blaming (in part) Khalilzad.


      This resolves into two questions - given how complex the political situation among the mujahadeen was, does it even make sense to blame the US for AQ (after all OBL played little role in the resistance, compared to many who opposed OBL) Second, to the extent Afghanistan DID strenghten radical Islam, was it worth it for the role Afghanistan played in bringing down the USSR?
      "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

      Comment


      • #33
        He's obviously a super-sleeper infiltrator!

        ---a man we want as President when we are fighting the war of our lives against Islam?


        (Quote from the Obama thread)
        So get your Naomi Klein books and move it or I'll seriously bash your faces in! - Supercitizen to stupid students
        Be kind to the nerdiest guy in school. He will be your boss when you've grown up!

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by lord of the mark
          I have lots of concerns. Is the current weather a sign of global warming? How close is Iran to a bomb? How much trouble will I have setting up my new router? How will POTM do on her biology test? Will the Dems be foolish enough to impeach? Etc, etc.
          Which teacher does she have?

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Kuciwalker


            Which teacher does she have?
            curtis is the english teacher, Im blanking on the bio teachers name. I dont know if they keep the IBET teams the same from year to year. Frankly its been something of a struggle.
            "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

            Comment


            • #36
              Posted by LOTM
              Bosnia declared independence, some folks declared a Republika Srbska on that territory, and Bosnia chose to defend the unity of the territory of the former Yugo Bosnian Republic. Which of those actions was instigated by Khalilzad.


              The causes of the Bosnian war are far more complex than that, but there need have been no war were it not for the US encouraging the Izetbegovic faction to always hold out for more during pre-war peace talks. Hence my placing of the responsibility of the conflict with the US. My comment was not referring to ZK's specific role but describing US policy generally.

              Khalilzad was, however, a director of policy planning in the Pentagon, and therefore at the heart of such policy. Specifically we do know that he was openly an advocate of lifting the arms embargo to the fundamentalist faction - allowing Iran and Saudi Arabia to persue their interests.

              NATO and its allies referred to the Islamic fundamentalist faction led by Alijah Izetbegovic as the 'Bosnian government, and I presume this is what you mean by 'Bosnia'. However, another muslim faction (secular, lead by Fiket Abdic) was allied with the Bosnian Serbs. So the statement 'Bosnia declared independence' actually refers to one faction, the fundamentalist one, of the muslim side. The statement that the Izetbegovic faction "chose to defend the unity of the territory of the former Yugo Bosnian Republic" is another way of saying that that faction wished to create an Islamic state against the wishes of the majority of Bosnians, including most Croats, Serbs and the secular muslim faction lead by Abdic.


              Anyway, here is a quote from the pro-Izetbegovic Guardian giving its spin on a Dutch report.




              Now we have the full story of the secret alliance between the Pentagon and radical Islamist groups from the Middle East designed to assist the Bosnian Muslims.

              In both Afghanistan and the Gulf, the Pentagon had incurred debts to Islamist groups and their Middle Eastern sponsors. By 1993 these groups, many supported by Iran and Saudi Arabia, were anxious to help Bosnian Muslims fighting in the former Yugoslavia and called in their debts with the Americans. Bill Clinton and the Pentagon were keen to be seen as creditworthy and repaid in the form of an Iran-Contra style operation - in flagrant violation of the UN security council arms embargo against all combatants in the former Yugoslavia.

              The result was a vast secret conduit of weapons smuggling though Croatia. This was arranged by the clandestine agencies of the US, Turkey and Iran, together with a range of radical Islamist groups, including Afghan mojahedin and the pro-Iranian Hizbullah...

              Arms purchased by Iran and Turkey with the financial backing of Saudi Arabia made their way by night from the Middle East...The report stresses that the US was "very closely involved" in the airlift. Mojahedin fighters were also flown in, but they were reserved as shock troops for especially hazardous operations....

              Rather than the CIA, the Pentagon's own secret service was the hidden force behind these operations...

              When these [weapon] shipments were noticed, Americans pressured UNPROFOR to rewrite reports, and when Norwegian officials protested about the flights, they were reportedly threatened into silence.

              Meanwhile, the secret services of Ukraine, Greece and Israel were busy arming the Bosnian Serbs. Mossad was especially active and concluded a deal with the Bosnian Serbs at Pale..


              While I would dispute the idea that the US was being pressurised by 'debts', the piece does concede that the Pentagon secret service was controlling the operations.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Cort Haus
                Posted by LOTM
                Bosnia declared independence, some folks declared a Republika Srbska on that territory, and Bosnia chose to defend the unity of the territory of the former Yugo Bosnian Republic. Which of those actions was instigated by Khalilzad.


                The causes of the Bosnian war are far more complex than that, but there need have been no war were it not for the US encouraging the Izetbegovic faction to always hold out for more during pre-war peace talks. Hence my placing of the responsibility of the conflict with the US. My comment was not referring to ZK's specific role but describing US policy generally.

                Khalilzad was, however, a director of policy planning in the Pentagon, and therefore at the heart of such policy. Specifically we do know that he was openly an advocate of lifting the arms embargo to the fundamentalist faction - allowing Iran and Saudi Arabia to persue their interests.

                NATO and its allies referred to the Islamic fundamentalist faction led by Alijah Izetbegovic as the 'Bosnian government, and I presume this is what you mean by 'Bosnia'. However, another muslim faction (secular, lead by Fiket Abdic) was allied with the Bosnian Serbs. So the statement 'Bosnia declared independence' actually refers to one faction, the fundamentalist one, of the muslim side. The statement that the Izetbegovic faction "chose to defend the unity of the territory of the former Yugo Bosnian Republic" is another way of saying that that faction wished to create an Islamic state against the wishes of the majority of Bosnians, including most Croats, Serbs and the secular muslim faction lead by Abdic.


                Anyway, here is a quote from the pro-Izetbegovic Guardian giving its spin on a Dutch report.




                Now we have the full story of the secret alliance between the Pentagon and radical Islamist groups from the Middle East designed to assist the Bosnian Muslims.

                In both Afghanistan and the Gulf, the Pentagon had incurred debts to Islamist groups and their Middle Eastern sponsors. By 1993 these groups, many supported by Iran and Saudi Arabia, were anxious to help Bosnian Muslims fighting in the former Yugoslavia and called in their debts with the Americans. Bill Clinton and the Pentagon were keen to be seen as creditworthy and repaid in the form of an Iran-Contra style operation - in flagrant violation of the UN security council arms embargo against all combatants in the former Yugoslavia.

                The result was a vast secret conduit of weapons smuggling though Croatia. This was arranged by the clandestine agencies of the US, Turkey and Iran, together with a range of radical Islamist groups, including Afghan mojahedin and the pro-Iranian Hizbullah...

                Arms purchased by Iran and Turkey with the financial backing of Saudi Arabia made their way by night from the Middle East...The report stresses that the US was "very closely involved" in the airlift. Mojahedin fighters were also flown in, but they were reserved as shock troops for especially hazardous operations....

                Rather than the CIA, the Pentagon's own secret service was the hidden force behind these operations...

                When these [weapon] shipments were noticed, Americans pressured UNPROFOR to rewrite reports, and when Norwegian officials protested about the flights, they were reportedly threatened into silence.

                Meanwhile, the secret services of Ukraine, Greece and Israel were busy arming the Bosnian Serbs. Mossad was especially active and concluded a deal with the Bosnian Serbs at Pale..


                While I would dispute the idea that the US was being pressurised by 'debts', the piece does concede that the Pentagon secret service was controlling the operations.
                To my knowledge the US did not press the govt of Bosnia to ask for more in prewar peacetalks.

                I refer to the Izbetgovic govt as the Govt of Bosnia because it WAS the govt of Bosnia. Before secession, and it continued to run Sarajevo after the secession.

                As for supporting a unitary Bosnian state being the same as supporting an Islamist state, that makes no sense. A unitary state would have a muslim minority, and could not be Islamist. A divided Bosnia is the only thing that could make an Islamist state possible (and even that would be opposed by most Bosnian muslims)

                AFAIK most Bosnian secular Bosnian muslims opposed the Republika Srbska, and supported a united Bosnia, for precisely the reasons I laid out above. Its very nice for the Serbs that they found a Quis- er, someone very friendly to their goals among the Bosnian muslims. Do you deny that the govt of Bosnia had the support of some Bosnian Serbs?

                as for the Guardian, whatever they thought of the Izbetgovic govt, their attitude toward the US department of Defense and the US in general is abundantly clear.

                By the way, can you tell me exactly who this Pentagon secret service consists of? Where does it fall in the DoD org chart?
                "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

                Comment


                • #38
                  In any case, I know you dont like the neocon attitude toward the Balkan wars. Agree to disagree.

                  What everyone else needs to know is that ZK is not part of some Muslim conspiracy, but has supported US assistance to Muslims in situations where garden variety neocons from Wolfowitz to Cheney, did so. If you dont like Neocons you wont like ZK (although in many ways he smarter and more pragmatic than many neocons). If you like them, then youll like him. But theres nothing of the kind of concerns Ned hinted at.
                  "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Frankly, I'm much more afraid of neocons.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by lord of the mark
                      The KLA dominated Kosovar politics because the Serbian govt had destroyed all moderate Kosovar politics.
                      No, the KLA destroyed moderate Kosovo Albanian politics. The first targets of their terrorist campaign were moderate Albanians. The term 'Kosovar' is disengenious, as it appropriates the word 'Kosovo' as an exclusively Albanian thing. There are Kosovo Albanians, and there are (or should I say were) Kosovo Serbs, as well as the other ethnicities (including Jews, before they were expelled by the KLA).

                      What does the word 'Kosovo' mean in Albanian? It doesn't mean anything at all, as it's a Serbian word for the province that what was originally the heart of Serbia, until policies of Albanian Nationalists, Italian Fascists, German Nazis, Tito and finally Nato created what is now a nearly ethnically pure region.

                      Ironically, if Slobodan Milosovic really was the devil incarnate as the propagandists would have it, one group of the people who could easily have removed him at the ballot box were the Kosovo Albanians. They could have done this as easily as boil an egg, but chose instead to disengage themselves from Serbian politics and set up parallel state structures, to try to victimise themselves to the world in a similar way to many Palestinian propagandists. Claims of oppression due to disengagement from the state apparatus were therefore self-inflicted.

                      Kosovo still is not a state, though if it becomes one serbian intransigence will have played a role in getting it there. Kosovo is certainly majority muslim, if thats your definition of "islamic".
                      Intransigence? In the 98-99 period it was the Serbian side that made offer after offer of talks and concessions, including a broad and comprehensive autonomy. The KLA were the intransigent ones, rejecting every offer of talks and demanding nothing short of full independence. Broad autonomy is still on the table, but KLA instransigence prevails.

                      At the sham negotiations at Rambouillet, the US instigated war by demanding the total capitulation and unconditional surrender of the whole of Yugoslavia, something unacceptable to any leader of any country in the world. These conditions were included in an annex that was held back from the world media to make sure that the Serbian side got the blame. By the time the truth was out, too much capital had been invested in blaming the Serbian side and no honest re-assesment of the causes of war were made.

                      Kosovo is majority muslim because of the Serbs that were once the majority before WW2 have been nearly all expelled. It would indeed be fair to describe it as still mostly secular at this stage - albeit criminal, and although independence would be illegal without Serbian agreement under resolution 1244 and the Kumanavo agreement which ended the war, the US, EU and the supporting cast of NGO's have always been clearly in favour of secession. Were that to happen, we could expect Saudi and other radical influences to increase.

                      -----

                      Anyway, according to you Khalizad supports the "Kosovars", by which you presumably mean the KLA (by whatever name it calls itself) though I have no information on any specific role that he played beyond his continued presence as part of the US foreign policy establishment.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by lord of the mark
                        If you dont like Neocons you wont like ZK (although in many ways he smarter and more pragmatic than many neocons). If you like them, then youll like him.
                        We can agree on this

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Here's an interesting piece on the scope of this man's power and influence. It refers to foreign policy appointments made by Bush & Rice in 2002.

                          In addition top retaining his job as 'Special Presidential Envoy for Afghanistan' he became 'Special Envoy and Ambassador at Large for Free Iraqis.'

                          He also continued as 'Special Assistant to the President'


                          BUSH, RICE ANNOUNCE FOREIGN POLICY APPOINTMENTS

                          President Bush announced December 2 the appointment of Dr. Zalmay Khalilzad as his Special Envoy and Ambassador at Large for Free Iraqis.

                          As Special Envoy, Dr. Khalilzad will serve as the focal point for contacts and coordination among Free Iraqis for the United States Government and for preparations for a post-Saddam Hussein Iraq, White House Press Secretary Ari Fleischer said in a statement.

                          "Dr. Khalilzad will continue as the Special Presidential Envoy for Afghanistan to ensure that the United States' commitment to working in partnership with the Afghan Government remains firm and resolute.

                          "Dr. Khalilzad also serves as Special Assistant to the President and Senior Director for Southwest Asia, Near East and North African Affairs, National Security Council. Dr. Khalilzad will relinquish this position so as to devote full time to Afghanistan, Free Iraqis, and outreach to the Muslim community. Dr. Khalilzad will continue to serve as Special Assistant to the President and Senior Director for these matters," the press secretary's statement said.




                          Powerful chap.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by lord of the mark
                            The KLA dominated Kosovar politics because the Serbian govt had destroyed all moderate Kosovar politics.
                            And because the US outright considered that Rugova could never achieve anything. You guys were on KLA's side as soon as you joined the fray.
                            "I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
                            "I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
                            "I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis

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                            • #44
                              As an example of Khalilzad's power as Special Envoy, he influenced the selection of Hamid Karzai to head the Afghan government, by getting the other two candidates to withdraw.


                              "Although challenged by two other candidates, his victory was preordained by the controversial influence of U.S. and other foreign advisors, which could taint the credibility of his tenure. Mohammad Zaher Shah, the nation's former king, withdrew from the political stage on the advice of President Bush's envoy [Zalmay Khalilzad]. Former President Burhanuddin Rabbani's departure from the race is believed to have been arranged in return for a prestigious title to be bestowed later.
                              -- Los Angeles Times
                              June 14, 2002

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by lord of the mark


                                Khalilzad was involved in US policy making on Afghanistan during the Reagan admin, when we were giving money and arms to Afghans, many motivated by Islam, to fight the USSR. Cort Haus is supporting the meme that "US funding created Al Qaeeda" and is blaming (in part) Khalilzad.
                                Note that our support for the Afghan resistance began under Carter. Was Khalilzad part of that policy formation?
                                http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en

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