Israel plans using mini nukes to blow up Iran nuclea facilities

[Darius871]

Originally posted by David Floyd
Iran is run by a religious nutcase who believes in the imminent return of the Mahdi. That's rather like having the US run by a Southern Baptist who believes the Rapture is soon approaching, and who believes that the solution to abortion is bombing abortion clinics and killing doctors. Extend that mentality into foreign policy, and you approach something comparable to President Ahmadinejad.

Next, consider the fact that Ahmadinejad has repeatedly promised, in public, to destroy Israel - "wipe it off the face of the earth", I believe, was the phrase he used. He denies the Holocaust regularly, and recently hosted a Holocaust denial summit which was essentially a front for anti-Israeli/anti-Jewish sentiment.

...

A religious nutjob running a country, who has repeatedly promised to destroy you, is actively pursuing nuclear energy, and probably nuclear weapons as well

You are aware that the President of Iran is a toothless figurehead with absolutely no control over the military, right? Or that the Iranian constitution grants both the Supreme Leader and the Majlis the right to remove the President at any time? Or that his term expires in 1.5 years anyway, before any militarized nuclear program could possibly bear fruit? Or that the results of the recent Assembly of Experts election reveal his miniscule chances at reelection?

[David Floyd]

Yes, that's true.

On the other hand, the ACTUAL power is held by the Supreme Leader. Currently, that is the Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, and Khamenei supports the policies of Ahmadinejad, and is fully behind efforts to produce nuclear fuel. He has been ranked by Parade Magazine this year as the 3rd worst dictator in the world.

And if you have any doubts about Khamenei's religious convictions, consider his "spiritual advisor", Mohammad Taqi Mesbah-Yazdi. A quick Wikipedia search on Mesbah-Yazdi reveals the following:

Ayatollah Mohammad Taghi Mesbah Yazdi (Persian: ãÍãÏ ÊÞی ãÕÈÇÍ یÒÏی) (born 1934) is an Iranian Shia cleric and politician. He is widely seen as President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's spiritual advisor, and a member of Iran's Assembly of Experts [1][2], the body responsible for choosing the Supreme Leader. Mesbah Yazdi espouses complete isolation from the West and proclaims non-literal interpretations of the Quran as heretical[3][4]. He advocates a return to the values of the 1979 Iranian revolution and is a prominent opponent of the Reformist movement in Iran. He hasn't stated anything about the legitimacy of the use of nuclear weapons under Islamic Law; he has approved martyrdom operations:

“ when protecting Islam and the Muslim `community depends on martyrdom operations, it not only is allowed, but even is an obligation as many of the Shi'ah great scholars and Maraje', including Ayatullah Safi Golpayegani and Ayatullah Fazel Lankarani, have clearly announced in their fatwas.[5]

Let's not fool ourselves. Ahmadinejad may just be the figurehead, but what he is saying is, by and large, the position of Iran.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Darius871


You are aware that the President of Iran is a toothless figurehead with absolutely no control over the military, right? Or that the Iranian constitution grants both the - and the Majlis the right to remove the President at any time? Or that his term expires in 1.5 years anyway, before any militarized nuclear program could possibly bear fruit? Or that the results of the recent Assembly of Experts election reveal his miniscule chances at reelection?

Ahmadinajad has ties within the Clerical establishment, and ties within the revolutionary guards and other security groups. Hes hardly the isolated, powerless figurehead you paint.

[KrazyHorse]

I don't believe at all that Israel has any intention of actually bombing Iran with nukes when Iran has done nothing more than to threaten to develop their own nukes.

On the other hand, if I were to proven completely wrong on that count then I would wholeheartedly support Canada developing a reasonable nuclear stockpile over the next 5 years or so as a precatuionary measure, something I would not have considered otherwise.

I doubt we'd be alone in doing so.

[David Floyd]

I don't believe at all that Israel has any intention of actually bombing Iran with nukes when Iran has done nothing more than to threaten to develop their own nukes.

They did it to Iraq in 1981, minus using nukes.

[Darius871]

Originally posted by David Floyd
And if you have any doubts about Khamenei's religious convictions, consider his "spiritual advisor", Mohammad Taqi Mesbah-Yazdi. A quick Wikipedia search on Mesbah-Yazdi reveals the following:

I know who he is (hence the reference above to his being trounced by Rafsanjani in the AoE elections), what he believes, and his disconcerting alleged links to the Hojjatieh. However, your own quote contradicts you: it says he is Ahmedinejad's spiritual advisor, not Khamenei's. Mezbah-Yazdi's closest link to Khamenei is a small role in electing his successor, AFAICS.

Originally posted by David Floyd
Yes, that's true.

On the other hand, the ACTUAL power is held by the Supreme Leader. Currently, that is the Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, and Khamenei supports the policies of Ahmadinejad, and is fully behind efforts to produce nuclear fuel.

Let's not fool ourselves. Ahmadinejad may just be the figurehead, but what he is saying is, by and large, the position of Iran.

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Ahmadinajad has ties within the Clerical establishment, and ties within the revolutionary guards and other security groups. Hes hardly the isolated, powerless figurehead you paint.

I won't deny that his words receive a curt nod from a substantial portion of the ulema, nor that a vast majority of both the Iranian elites and population at large support the civilian nuclear program. I'm simply sick of attempts by the Hannitys and Savages of the world to paint him as the next Hitler, with the power to 'push the button' on a whim. He's a kook who managed to garner enough votes using populist rhetoric, and all signs point to his ouster in the next election. In two years he'll be forgotten.

If you want to argue that Iran would most likely use nukes upon acquiring them (a position with which I don't even disagree), at least back that up with quotes from people who count.

[David Floyd]

However, your own quote contradicts you: it says he is Ahmedinejad's spiritual advisor, not Khamenei's.

Sorry, my mistake. I left out the following quote, which strongly implies agreement between Khamenei and Mesbah.

In a visit with Mohammad Taghi Mesbah Yazdi, Khamenei praised Mesbah’s books and thoughts as being original, very useful, solid and correct. He also stated that Islamic world needs these ideas today more than any time in the past. [21]

I won't deny that his words receive a curt nod from a substantial portion of the ulema, nor that a vast majority of both the Iranian elites and population at large support the civilian nuclear program. I'm simply sick of attempts by the Hannitys and Savages of the world to paint him as the next Hitler, with the power to launch missiles at Israel on a whim.

If you want to argue that Iran would most likely use nukes upon acquiring them (a position I don't even disagree with), at least back that up with quotes from people who count.

When the public face of Iran - Ahmadinejad - implies that position by stating he will wipe a nation off the face of the map, and when that public face is strongly supported by the Supreme Leader and religious clerics who actually run the country, then I'd say it counts.

If it's all just a case of posturing, then maybe Iran should look at it from Israel's perspective, and realize that Israel feeling threatened isn't all that unreasonable after all.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Darius871
I won't deny that his words receive a curt nod from a substantial portion of the ulema,

a curt nod? I think they are supported by a large part of the Iranian power structure, including notably the revolutionary guards. Im not sure how widespread his support in the Ulema is (is that term even correct in a Shia society? I dont know) And I suspect that a large portion of those who oppose his words, do so because his rhetoric could interfere with the quest for a bomb, not because they fundamentally disagree about the bombs useability.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by David Floyd
minus using nukes.

Now, that's the key phrase.

Not to mention the fact that Osirak was a lot easier than this would be.

[Sava]

Originally posted by Darius871

the Shah's notorious SAVAK.

[Ned]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
I don't believe at all that Israel has any intention of actually bombing Iran with nukes when Iran has done nothing more than to threaten to develop their own nukes.

On the other hand, if I were to proven completely wrong on that count then I would wholeheartedly support Canada developing a reasonable nuclear stockpile over the next 5 years or so as a precatuionary measure, something I would not have considered otherwise.

I doubt we'd be alone in doing so.

WTF? This post is literally crazy.

[Ned]

The issue here is not Israel right of preemptive defense, but its first use of nukes. That would so undermine Israel's moral case that the region should be free of nukes as to actually increase Israel's mortal danger.

From Siro's post, it is also clear that Israel does not have the capability to get very large conventional bombs on target. The US has those bombs, but we also have heavy bombers.

Thus Israel appears to be in an impossible situation and really needs the US to help it out with bunker busters, bombers, or the like, in order to forstall the use of nuclear weapons by Israel.

Perhaps this is the reason Israel leak the info in the first place.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Ned
Siro, it seems, from your post, that Israel is considering small nukes because it has no means of delivering on target "very, very, very, very big bunker busters."

Why doesn't Israel buy a few B1's?

I'm not saying anything.
I haven't got any connection to this issue.
This whole thing could easily be a spoof. I don't know.

B1's are probably to expensive and too 'strategic' for us.
We really don't need to bomb russia. yet.

Supposedly, F16i and out submarines are quite capable

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Ned
From Siro's post, it is also clear that Israel does not have the capability to get very large conventional bombs on target. The US has those bombs, but we also have heavy bombers.

Thus Israel appears to be in an impossible situation and really needs the US to help it out with bunker busters, bombers, or the like, in order to forstall the use of nuclear weapons by Israel.

Perhaps this is the reason Israel leak the info in the first place.

You really shouldn't rely on my posts as holy bible... on this issue.

I have no idea what we can do.

I'm guessing, that using a tactical nuke is easier and gives high success rates.

The Iranian crapola is buried deep deep deep underground.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov

You really shouldn't rely on my posts as holy bible... on this issue.

perhaps he thinks that "ki mitzion taytzay Torah"