Pledge of Allegiance

[Grandpa Troll]

Originally posted by Lord Avalon
How ironic to talk about honoring the flag, yet post a pic of people wearing it, which is against the flag code.

http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagetiq.html

As far as the Pledge goes, I think "under God" can be left out.

You so far are the only one to pick up on it


Was on purpose and intentionally to spark debate

[LordShiva]

I approve

[Odin]

The pledge was written by a socialist.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Odin
The pledge was written by a socialist.

First post with historical content (other than McCains personal story, which the OP already positioned for non-historical purposes)

Why is this threat not in OT?

[Odin]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


First post with historical content (other than McCains personal story, which the OP already positioned for non-historical purposes)

Why is this threat not in OT?

+1s I'm assuming...

[Odin]

The Pledge of Allegiance was written for the popular children's magazine Youth's Companion by socialist author and Baptist minister Francis Bellamy on September 7, 1892. The owners of Youth's Companion were selling flags to schools, and approached Bellamy to write the Pledge for their advertising campaign. It was marketed as a way to celebrate the 400th anniversary of Columbus arriving in the Americas and was first published on the following day.

Bellamy's original Pledge read as follows: I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all., and was seen by some as a call for national unity and wholeness after the divisive Civil War. The pledge was supposed to be quick and to the point. Bellamy designed it to be stated in 15 seconds. He had initially also considered using the words equality and fraternity but decided they were too controversial since many people still opposed equal rights for women and African Americans. Bellamy said that the purpose of the pledge was to teach obedience to the state as a virtue.

After a proclamation by President Benjamin Harrison, the Pledge was first used in public schools on October 12, 1892 during Columbus Day observances. The form adopted inserted the word "to" before "the Republic."

In 1923 and 1924 the National Flag Conference called for the words my Flag to be changed to the Flag of the United States of America. The reason given was to ensure that immigrants knew to which flag reference was being made. The U.S. Congress officially recognized the Pledge as the official national pledge on December 28, 1945.

In 1940 the Supreme Court, in deciding the case of Minersville School District v. Gobitis, ruled that students in public schools could be compelled to recite the Pledge, even Jehovah's Witnesses like the Gobitases, who considered the flag salute to be idolatry. In the wake of this ruling, there was a rash of mob violence and intimidation against Jehovah's Witnesses. In 1943 the Supreme Court reversed its decision, ruling in West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette that matters of religious conviction should be safeguarded from political control.

Before World War II, the Pledge was begun with the right hand over the heart during the phrase "I pledge allegiance". The arm was then extended toward the Flag at the phrase "to the Flag", and it remained outstretched during the rest of the pledge, with the palm facing upward, as if to lift the flag. An earlier version, the Bellamy salute, also ended with the arm outstretched and the palm upwards, but began with the right hand in a military salute, not over the heart. Both of these salutes differed from the Roman salute, where the palm was toward the ground. However, during the war the outstretched arm became identified with Nazism and Fascism, and the custom was changed: today the Pledge is said from beginning to end with the right hand over the heart.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance

[Grandpa Troll]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


First post with historical content (other than McCains personal story, which the OP already positioned for non-historical purposes)

This was the reason, sharing that some people found honor and strength behind the meaning of standing up for our government

Why is this threat not in OT?

I was sharing in its Historical context of being used by some soldiers to be given hope that all was not lost, they held on to the beliefs that the oath they took meant something.

Now i dare not debate the government of the USA is perfect because its not. Humans are not so we had some guidelines set forth by our founding fathers who themselves were not perfect.

I guess I posted because a country is only as good as the sum total of what it stands for and the population in my humble and totally unprofessional opinion has the power to do something about our government.

That being said I defend you sir and any other in this forum and beyond the right to feel the way you do.

What i dont appreciate is burning a flag that means something to me but I can handle that, not going to keep me up at nights.

Yes I posted the pic and did it for a reason, that being the diversity of the way things are viewed. Lord Avalon hit upon it about how ironic it is. My point was to seed this conversation and to hear various views on this. I appalaud the diversity of answers.

I would just chose to believe in our country with the Hope of a new and better tommorow. Possibly not and probably not in my lifetime. Still, a small glimmer of hope.

I am as allways honored to have this discussion with those I call family here at Apolyton in total agreement or widely divided and opposed, I support your right to the very freedom.

Bruce

[Rasputin]

it is amazing how different countries are raised in different ways and therefore express there allegiance in different ways.

I think the whole school thing of swearing allegiance to a flag is a bit over the top. but that just my opinion.

I also agree that we need t oask what are we searing allegiance to.

Are we brainwashing our kids to blindly follow whatever the government decides.

bringing up the memories of the lost and wounded from wars to try an achieve alliegance doesnt work either. becasue to me being a supporter of a regime that is inherantly evil is bad. whilst george bush certainly hasnt become totally evil, many of his decisions are just wrong, and i feel so sorry for Defnece force members sent to do the bididng of him.

I respect people who think they are doing the right thing, and think they are trying to help me remain free.

But i do not pledge allegiance to any country, or goverment or flag.

We are all members of this world and need to live and work togethre in peace and harmony.

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by Grandpa Troll

I am as allways honored to have this discussion with those I call family here at Apolyton in total agreement or widely divided and opposed, I support your right to the very freedom.

Bruce

I am the one who is honored. There is great wisdom in your words, and great compassion in your heart.

[Arrian]

I'd just like to note that this:

Mike got himself a bamboo needle. Over a period of a couple of months,
> he created an American flag and sewed on the inside of his shirt.
> Every afternoon, before we had a bowl of soup, we would hang Mike's
> shirt on the wall of the cell and say the Pledge of Allegiance.
>
> I know the Pledge of Allegiance may not seem the most important part of
> our day now, but I can assure you that in that stark cell it was indeed
> the most important and meaningful event.

Is radically different than having young children recite it mindlessly each day in school.

Personally, my allegience lies with the USA (to a point - it's not unconditional), but to hell with the pledge.

When I was in school I'd stand but not say anything (at least after a while - I probably recited the pledge at first). I do not recall my teachers ever bothering me about it.

-Arrian

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Arrian
I'd just like to note that this:



Is radically different than having young children recite it mindlessly each day in school.

Personally, my allegience lies with the USA (to a point - it's not unconditional), but to hell with the pledge.

When I was in school I'd stand but not say anything (at least after a while - I probably recited the pledge at first). I do not recall my teachers ever bothering me about it.

-Arrian

Ive always said the pledge enthusiastically.

To the Republic for which it stands - thats key, its not allegiance to the cloth.

One nation - Ie lets get stop bickering against each other

Under God - well that doesnt bother me, but I understand those who prefer the older version.

With liberty - for which im grateful, the more so because the liberty here saved my grandparents from almost certain violent death.

And justice for all - a constant challenged, one that we who benefit from liberty owe to all our fellow citizens who do not yet have justice.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Arrian
I'd just like to note that this:



Is radically different than having young children recite it mindlessly each day in school.

Does a daily recitation have to be mindless? Your kavanah (awareness, intention) will likely differ on different days. The ritual itself can have meaning, like the recitation of a word in meditation. A way to start the day. A symbolic communal act. Like a morning prayer. The morning prayer of the American civil religion.

[Arrian]

It does not have to be mindless. For the most part, however, when it's done by little kids it IS mindless. [cue ozzie with the charges of ageism now]

And there is definitely something vaguely fascistic about having all your school children stand up and pledge allegiance to the republic each day. Blech.

As for the prayer comparison... you know how I feel about religion.

-Arrian

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Arrian
It does not have to be mindless. For the most part, however, when it's done by little kids it IS mindless. [cue ozzie with the charges of ageism now]

And there is definitely something vaguely fascistic about having all your school children stand up and pledge allegiance to the republic each day. Blech.

As for the prayer comparison... you know how I feel about religion.

-Arrian

I do know how you feel about religion. Which is why I suspect you dont see the complexities involved with ritual, and what it does, and the oversimplification in calling it "mindless". A ritual is not a discussion. It serves different purposes for the human heart.

And we had the pledge of course before Fascism was invented. Being loyal to your nation, and expressing it through rituals, rituals that are given to children to create an emotional bond for them, is NOT fascism. Fascism is a specific ideology that despises democracy, liberalism (in the broadest sense), and that glorifies war and violence on aesthetic grounds.


I do NOT accept the equation of nationalism, even emotive nationalism, with fascism. Its no more legitimate than using communism for every militant form of socialism.