Pledge of Allegiance

[Grandpa Troll]

John McCain's remarks about the Pledge of Allegiance!
>
>

In light of the recent appeals court ruling in California , with
> respect to the Pledge of Allegiance, the following recollection from
> Senator John McCain is very appropriate:
>
> "The Pledge of Allegiance" - by Senator John McCain
>
> As you may know, I spent five and one half years as a prisoner of war
> during the Vietnam War. In the early years of our imprisonment, the NVA
> kept us in solitary confinement or two or three to a cell. In 1971
> the
>
> NVA moved us from these conditions of isolation into large rooms with
> as many as 30 to 40 men to a room. This was, as you can imagine, a
> wonderful change
> and was a direct result of the efforts of millions of Americans on
> behalf of a few hundred
> POWs 10,000 miles from home.
>
> One of the men who moved into my room was a young man named Mike
> Christian. Mike came from a small town near Selma , Alabama He
> didn't wear a pair
> of shoes until he was 13 years old. At 17, he enlisted in the US Navy.
> He
> later earned a commission by going to Officer Training School. Then he
> became a Naval Flight Officer and was shot down and captured in 1967.
> Mike had a keen and deep appreciation of the opportunities this
> country and
> our military provide for people who want to work and want to succeed.
>
> As part of the change in treatment, the Vietnamese allowed some
> prisoners to receive packages from home. In some of these
> packages were
> handkerchiefs, scarves and other items of clothing.
>
> Mike got himself a bamboo needle. Over a period of a couple of months,
> he created an American flag and sewed on the inside of his shirt.
> Every afternoon, before we had a bowl of soup, we would hang Mike's
> shirt on the wall of the cell and say the Pledge of Allegiance.
>
> I know the Pledge of Allegiance may not seem the most important part of
> our day now, but I can assure you that in that stark cell it was indeed
> the most important and meaningful event.
>
> One day the Vietnamese searched our cell, as they did periodically, and
> discovered Mike's shirt with the flag sewed inside, and removed it.
>
> That evening they returned, opened the door
> of the cell, and for the benefit of all of us, beat Mike Christian
> severely for the next couple of hours. Then, they opened the door of
> the cell and threw him in. We cleaned him up as well as we could.
>
> The cell in which we lived had a concrete slab in the middle on which
> we slept. Four naked light bulbs hung in each corner of the room.
>
> As I said, we tried to clean up Mike as well as we could. After the
> excitement died down, I looked in the corner of the room, and sitting
> there beneath that dim light bulb with a piece of red cloth, another
> shirt and his bamboo needle, was my friend, Mike Christian. He was
> sitting
> there with his eyes almost shut from the beating he had received,
> making
> another American flag. He was not making the flag because it made Mike
> Christian feel better. He was making that flag because he knew how
> important it
> was to us to be able to Pledge our allegiance to our flag and
> country.
>
> So the next time you say the Pledge of Allegiance, you must
> never forget the sacrifice
> and courage thousands of Americans have made to build our nation
> and promote
> freedom around the world.
>
> You must remember our duty, our honor, and our country
>
> "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to
> the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible,
> with liberty and justice for all."

I just wanted to share why some of us American's may feel strongly about why we should stand for our flag and for what it stands for.

Bruce K. Cronkite

U S Army Veteran

American Citizen

Grandpa Troll of Apolyton

[SlowwHand]

[Dauphin]

When I was at elementary school in the US I was forced to recite the pledge. Given that I'm not American and at the time time there was no way I would understand what it meant I think that it was wrong, in retrospect. People do indeed need to remember the reason for the pledge, rather than to blindly recite it or to require of others that they blindly recite it, else you lose the meaning of it.

[Grandpa Troll]

Originally posted by Dauphin
When I was at elementary school in the US I was forced to recite the pledge. Given that I'm not American and at the time time there was no way I would understand what it meant I think that it was wrong, in retrospect. People do indeed need to remember the reason for the pledge, rather than to blindly recite it or to require of others that they blindly recite it, else you lose the meaning of it.

Interesting observation.

One thing I would say is at an early age such as elementary school it isnt necessarily being "blindly" but more so instructional as our younger generation dont know what hasnt been taught them.

but I agree it should be from the heart and not from the lips

Again elementary school kids most probably have no earthly idea the concept behind a pledge such as this until learning thru intruction of its reason and therefore its merited honor

USA!!

Gramps

[LordShiva]

BABE THREAD

[Zkribbler]

Re: Pledge of Allegiance

Originally posted by Grandpa Troll

I just wanted to share why some of us American's may feel strongly about why we should stand for our flag and for what it stands for.

Ah yes...but what does it stand for??

For example, people who wish to ban flag-burning see that flag as a symbol of freedom. They want to protect the symbol of freedom, which everyone can agree is a good thing.

But people who burn the flag aren't using it as a symbol of freedom. Rather, they are burning it as symbol of the U.S. government, and because they believe that the U.S. government has done something harmful to freedom. They burn the flag to symbolically express their disgust of the actions of the government.

This is one of the horrendous problems with "symbollic speech." It is so easy to misinterpret.

One of our greatest freedoms is freedom of expression. So I find myself having to defend flag burners and the like.

But I'd sure like to grab them by the scruff of their necks, drag them to the nearest mens room, shove their heads into a toilet and flush it--because they are such friggin morons! The purpose of freedom of expression is so that dissidents can pursuade the majority to change course. Flag burning is counter productive to the max. Any other action would be better.

[Grandpa Troll]

Re: Re: Pledge of Allegiance

Originally posted by Zkribbler


Ah yes...but what does it stand for??

For example, people who wish to ban flag-burning see that flag as a symbol of freedom. They want to protect the symbol of freedom, which everyone can agree is a good thing.

But people who burn the flag aren't using it as a symbol of freedom. Rather, they are burning it as symbol of the U.S. government, and because they believe that the U.S. government has done something harmful to freedom. They burn the flag to symbolically express their disgust of the actions of the government.

This is one of the horrendous problems with "symbollic speech." It is so easy to misinterpret.

One of our greatest freedoms is freedom of expression. So I find myself having to defend flag burners and the like.

But I'd sure like to grab them by the scruff of their necks, drag them to the nearest mens room, shove their heads into a toilet and flush it--because they are such friggin morons! The purpose of freedom of expression is so that dissidents can pursuade the majority to change course. Flag burning is counter productive to the max. Any other action would be better.

Thats not entirely true

When you have freedom of speech that doesnt give you the right to use abusive language in public places.

It doesnt give you the right to use derogatory language not the right to say untruths just because its your right to free speech

Freedom of Speech doesnt give you the right to threaten another person with harm, even if you meant it only as words and not actions. Communicating a threat is not anything more than communicating a threat, the constitution doesnt say its ok because you have that right

I could never stand for a flag burner under freedom of expression. I dont know if you have children/grandchildren, nieces or nephews but if a naked man walked up to your 3 year old grandchild and started masturbating because that was his way of expressing the joy of having the ability to do so, is that right? No not even so in essence there has to be boundaries set and I believe the Flag of our country should be honored and if the current administration doesnt cut it for someone then they should seek alternate forms of oppossing it, not burning it.

I do believe people have the right to disagree and to speak out against the Government but only in a respectable aceeptable way.

Gramps

[Starchild]

Originally posted by Dauphin
When I was at elementary school in the US I was forced to recite the pledge. Given that I'm not American and at the time time there was no way I would understand what it meant I think that it was wrong, in retrospect. People do indeed need to remember the reason for the pledge, rather than to blindly recite it or to require of others that they blindly recite it, else you lose the meaning of it.

Exactly the same with me, when I was at an American elementary school. No one bothered to point out the problem with a British citizen pledging allegiance to America. I wonder how many Americans would be up in arms if an american child had to pledge allegiance to the Queen.

Where in America did you go to elementary school? I spent 10 years living in the slow hell of suburban New Jersey.

[vovan]

I agree with Zkribbler, the flag means different things to different people. The pledge of allegiance specifies one such meaning: "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands" However, I also think that a person should not be forced to recite it.

I can only judge by my own experience... The first few years I was in America, I didn't once recite the pledge of allegiance, nor did I put my hand over my heart when hearing the American anthem. I just wasn't ready. In fact, to me then, it seemed that if I were to do this, I would somehow betray my own country. These days, I can honestly say, I love America almost as much as Russia. Hell, at my graduation ceremony from college, I even sang along with the anthem, and it wasn't because everybody was singing, it sincerely felt good.

But I still refuse to say the pledge of allegiance. It's sort of meaningless to me. And I am pretty happy nobody forces me to say anything I don't want to.

With kids in school, however, it's a bit more difficult. The line between teaching them patriotism and indoctrinating them is quite thin, and I, personally, don't know where it is (in fact, I think it may be different for different people).

[Grandpa Troll]

Different times now then when I was growing up.

I wouldn't expect a foreign child "attending" a school and not an American citizen should be forced to do anything, the child has no connection to Americanism in the form of patriotism and committment to the "Republic for which it stands"

This is good for the responses, American citizens should but are not required to feel allegiance.

I was thinking many years back, if a country invaded America, the invaders/oppressors wouldn't give a hoot or holler if a person saluted our flag or sang the Pledge of Allegiance.

If that person was taken into custody, beaten bruised and battered because they were from USA, then the only relief coming came from troops who under oath agreed to keep America Free, sought out and liberated this American Citizen, I do wonder if they would feel any differently?

I agree America needs much work on its government.

I would rather be an American more than any other country's citizen. This puts down no country just my preference.

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by Starchild


Exactly the same with me, when I was at an American elementary school. No one bothered to point out the problem with a British citizen pledging allegiance to America. I wonder how many Americans would be up in arms if an american child had to pledge allegiance to the Queen.

Where in America did you go to elementary school? I spent 10 years living in the slow hell of suburban New Jersey.

I was in Riverside, Connecticut in the mid-80s for 3 years.

[Zkribbler]

Re: Re: Re: Pledge of Allegiance

Originally posted by Grandpa Troll
When you have freedom of speech that doesnt give you the right to use abusive language in public places.

It doesnt give you the right to use derogatory language not the right to say untruths just because its your right to free speech

Burning the flag in protest is not abusive language, is not derogatory language and is not an untruth.

Freedom of Speech doesnt give you the right to threaten another person with harm, even if you meant it only as words and not actions. Communicating a threat is not anything more than communicating a threat, the constitution doesnt say its ok because you have that right

I could never stand for a flag burner under freedom of expression. I dont know if you have children/grandchildren, nieces or nephews but if a naked man walked up to your 3 year old grandchild and started masturbating because that was his way of expressing the joy of having the ability to do so, is that right? No not even so in essence there has to be boundaries set and I believe the Flag of our country should be honored and if the current administration doesnt cut it for someone then they should seek alternate forms of oppossing it, not burning it.

Burning the flag in protest is not a threat, nor is it lewd conduct.

I do believe people have the right to disagree and to speak out against the Government but only in a respectable aceeptable way.
Gramps

Sometime protest in not respectable.

And it should never have to be "acceptable" to the people you're protesting against.

Freedom is the right to do anything that doesn't hurt anyone else.

[Grandpa Troll]

It is a matter of your opinion and my opinion is a matter of my heart.

But, I dont own the Flag only honor it as clearly as I can.

Gramps

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by Grandpa Troll
This is good for the responses, American citizens should but are not required to feel allegiance.

What does pledge of allegiance mean?

I feel no allegiance to the political structure that is in place. I am not a monarchist, nor am I a republican, I could happily live under either regime as I see no change to the liberties and freedoms that I enjoy.

I live in the UK, a country that is made up of countries. Do I feel loyalty to England? Do I feel loyalty to the UK? Why feel loyalty to Scotland which is another country within the bigger whole? Should I feel European loyalty too?

I also feel no allegiance to the people of my country, mainly because I know so many foreign persons that to ally myself along those lines is arbitrary.

And what does allegiance actually require you to do? Fight in a war for your country? To fight against injustices that are committed against the lofty ideals of the state constitution (or other laws)? To stand up and do what is best for the country?


I don't say this because I feel allegiance is wrong, it's just that it's a complex issue and will mean different things to different people. To me, it's about giving back to the society within which you enjoy your freedoms and liberties. How you choose to do that is in the way you know best. None of that requires a pledge to be said, a responsibility to serve, a defense of your nation from detractors or the performance of other 'patriotic' acts. What it requires is that you have a respect for your society and work in a symbiotic relationship to make it a better place for all. That should be true regardless of your country and regardless of the political set-up under which you live.

It feeds back to what you said in the first post. The pledge is a symbol made to those who fight for your society, and for that fight being made society is indebted, but the debt need not be repaid by a pledge - but it has meaning to those who do it for that reason.

[Lord Avalon]

How ironic to talk about honoring the flag, yet post a pic of people wearing it, which is against the flag code.

United States Code Title 4 Chapter 1 - The Flag
8. Respect for flag
d. The flag should never be used as wearing apparel...

http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagetiq.html

As far as the Pledge goes, I think "under God" can be left out.