On Harry Potter and His World

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Solver
Well, witch-burning exists in the HP universe.

And didn't work. The wizards and witches just wiggled their wand and the fire didn't hurt them.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I'm sure some were dispossessed of their wand when they were tied to the stake.

[Lonestar]

with what? Matchlocks?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Well if you sneak up behind a wizard and bop him on the head, he may drop his wand behind. Or if you catch him sleeping. Or all sorts of scenarios.

[Nubclear]

This is silly.

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Well if you sneak up behind a wizard and bop him on the head, he may drop his wand behind. Or if you catch him sleeping. Or all sorts of scenarios.

except in the History books at Hogwarts they imply heavily that only fake witches were burned, and those that were "caught" often could get out of it on their own. Or get off on fire.

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by Tassi
This is silly.

Shhhhh...

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Lonestar
except in the History books at Hogwarts they imply heavily that only fake witches were burned, and those that were "caught" often could get out of it on their own. Or get off on fire.

Except I don't exactly find that all that plausible (a plothole, if you will). Considering that that was written about early on in the series, Rowling hadn't yet moved to the darker writing of the last 2+ books. I mean we just see the best wizards (the ones good enough to teach at Hogwarts). There are bound to be lazy, non-careful wizards out there in the world.

Wizards did retreat out of the world. If the witch burnings didn't result in any deaths or injuries, I'm not sure why they'd do so. To be nice to humanity?

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Other points have been addressed, but



The pure blood concept existed because some people believe that folks should stick to their own kind. One of the reasons for magic folk to think this way is because warlock and witches have been persecuted by Muggles for generations. Therefore some wizards may consider them to be untrustworthy. Of course this DOES NOT apply to all wizards, as some are very fond of muggles, as seen by the fact that there has been a Minister of Magic for quite some time.

And if Hermione could be a really, really long suppression of the gene, then ANY muggle may be carrying such genes. So to push them down is silly because the greatest witch or wizard of the age could come from two muggles. If there is a caste-like system in Harry Potter then what happens when in your described 'lowest caste' muggles produce an amazing wizard? Do they jump castes... isn't that not supposed to be allowed?

Within a thousand years, the requisite combination of genes would have worked its way into the general pop enough to show up in unexpected places. That's not unexpected.

But the original question remains unanswered - if, as you said, this was a realistic portrayal, the magical people would completely dominate the non-magical ones. In such a case, if I wasn't born a wizard, would there be any hope of justice for me?

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

The fact is that Rowling has been adamant the the book is about the idiocy and silliness of discrimination as seen by the fact that Hermione is the most powerful student in Hogwarts in her class (and perhaps beyond). It's a sign to show how dumb it is that to those like the Malfoys she is considered a "mudblood" and beneath them when she will be far more powerful than Lucious if she lives to his age.

Hermione is the most powerful - but still Harry is the "chosen" one. Not very nice, is it?

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

The caste analogy, furthermore, is ludicrious. No house is below any others. The fact that one is for the intelligent folk, one for the brave, one for the hard working and loyal, and one for the ambitious doesn't mean she was going for an Indian caste system. And, as pointed out, you completely stereotype, mistakenly, Slytherin house. It is ambitious, not necessarily evil. Slughorn is NOT evil. The hat wanted to put Harry in that house as well (and recall HARRY chose his house in the end, not the hat).

Oh COME ON!

There is very definitely a Persian-type caste system here.

Gryffindor>Ravenclaw>Hufflepuff>Slytherin

And Harry got to choose because he was a borderline case. There are people on whose head the hat had to descend but an inch before pronouncing its verdict. What choice did they have?

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Recall Dumbledore's constant words that it is our ACTIONS not our ancestry that define who we are.

Actions and realities speak louder than words, IMO.

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

The "ultimately unjust world" would be the one if Voldemort took over. However, a vast majority of wizards do not agree with Voldemort, who wants to basically create your caste system.

My position is that at some point of time, people like Voldemort will win, if not through force then through politics (like Hitler), and that the muggles are screwed, because the most advanced technology of the muggles is but a toy to the magical. I'm saying that when one group has so much power over another, it is inevitable that it will one day be exercised.

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

In fact, Rowling makes it clear that the enemy wants a caste system, while the current structure is not one and folks like Dumbledore want to keep the structure as it is and not revert to a caste system.

Agreed. My point is that a caste system may be justified if the magical people actually are superior - which they are. Such systems (racism, casteism, sexism, etc.) are wrong only if the people being discriminated against are being wrongly discriminated against. If they're actually inferior, is discrimination bad? That's on open question, and one humanity has not yet had to face. It cannot be faced by denial, as by Rowling.

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

It seems that you simply want to see India in places where it isn't. You are trying too hard.

[Kuciwalker]

Within a thousand years, the requisite combination of genes would have worked its way into the general pop enough to show up in unexpected places. That's not unexpected.

People with dark brown eyes don't suddently give birth to blue-eyed children.

[Imran Siddiqui]

if, as you said, this was a realistic portrayal, the magical people would completely dominate the non-magical ones. In such a case, if I wasn't born a wizard, would there be any hope of justice for me?

Why would they? When the non-magical people overwhelm them by massive numbers? Why do you think the magical people retreated? If they thought they were superior, they would have taken over when hostility began. Instead they hid.

Hermione is the most powerful - but still Harry is the "chosen" one. Not very nice, is it?

Harry the half-blood (he has a muggle born mom)

There is very definitely a Persian-type caste system here.

Gryffindor>Ravenclaw>Hufflepuff>Slytherin

This may be the silliest nonsensical thing you've ever posted. You desperately want it to be true because you don't consider the hard working Hufflepuff to be on the same level of the intelligent Ravenclaw due to your own biases. But Cedric Diggory was picked for the Tri-Wizard Tournament over any Ravenclaw... how can that be if they are the 3rd best house in a 'caste system'.

Because there is no hierarchy. It's plain as day to anyone except the Indian who wants to see a caste system in the books... even though they'd run completely counter to Rowling's goals.

My position is that at some point of time, people like Voldemort will win, if not through force then through politics (like Hitler), and that the muggles are screwed, because the most advanced technology of the muggles is but a toy to the magical. I'm saying that when one group has so much power over another, it is inevitable that it will one day be exercised.

Muggles are in far greater numbers with weaponry like guns, atomic bombs, etc. It is the magical folk that went into hiding and are STILL continuing to hide. It's because the muggles have the power. And the technology brings their skills ever closer to magic (which they didn't need because of their numbers in the first place).

Such systems (racism, casteism, sexism, etc.) are wrong only if the people being discriminated against are being wrongly discriminated against. If they're actually inferior, is discrimination bad?

I don't normally call other posters evil, but in your case, I think I must make an exception.

Though you have justified colonialism, I guess (inferior technology / inferior power = discrimination ok for you).

[Jaguar]

aneeshm is an idiot.

[Drake Tungsten]

HP magic seems like it would be pretty worthless in a war with the Muggles. Avada Kedavra is the only really scary curse and even its killing power pales in comparison to a platoon of Marines with automatic weapons. The only plausible way for the magic users to rule the world would be to Imperius the right Muggles and run things from behind the scenes...

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

if, as you said, this was a realistic portrayal, the magical people would completely dominate the non-magical ones. In such a case, if I wasn't born a wizard, would there be any hope of justice for me?

Why would they? When the non-magical people overwhelm them by massive numbers? Why do you think the magical people retreated? If they thought they were superior, they would have taken over when hostility began. Instead they hid.

They hid because it was the option with the least amount of effort involved. Why bother fighting a race of people so trivial to you that in spite of their best efforts, they can't kill even one of you (witch-burnings not being successful, wizards feeling cool while the fire was raging, etc.)? Much better instead to retreat and get rid of the hassle. These people thought of witch-burnings as we would of a pet humping our furniture - annoying, but nothing to be really concerned about. If it gets to be too much, you can simply sell off the pet (i.e., retreat from the problem).

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Hermione is the most powerful - but still Harry is the "chosen" one. Not very nice, is it?

Harry the half-blood (he has a muggle born mom)

The point remains that the most powerful one is not the chosen one.

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

There is very definitely a Persian-type caste system here.

Gryffindor>Ravenclaw>Hufflepuff>Slytherin

This may be the silliest nonsensical thing you've ever posted. You desperately want it to be true because you don't consider the hard working Hufflepuff to be on the same level of the intelligent Ravenclaw due to your own biases. But Cedric Diggory was picked for the Tri-Wizard Tournament over any Ravenclaw... how can that be if they are the 3rd best house in a 'caste system'.

Because there is no hierarchy. It's plain as day to anyone except the Indian who wants to see a caste system in the books... even though they'd run completely counter to Rowling's goals.

Of course such a system runs counter to Rowling's goals! That's the whole damn point! I'm saying that in spite of that fact, it still exists. Hufflepuffs are not thought of as highly as the other three houses - they're portrayed as well-meaning and hard-working, but a little light minded. This is a thing that is quite obvious. Try asking any unbiased observer or reader of the books.

If you ask most people which house they would prefer to join, this is the standard response you'll get. I'm not making this up, you can check it out if you want.

And I do not consider any one house inferior, I'm just pointing out that they are portrayed to be perceived as such. Why you have to call me biased is beyond me.

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

My position is that at some point of time, people like Voldemort will win, if not through force then through politics (like Hitler), and that the muggles are screwed, because the most advanced technology of the muggles is but a toy to the magical. I'm saying that when one group has so much power over another, it is inevitable that it will one day be exercised.

Muggles are in far greater numbers with weaponry like guns, atomic bombs, etc. It is the magical folk that went into hiding and are STILL continuing to hide. It's because the muggles have the power. And the technology brings their skills ever closer to magic (which they didn't need because of their numbers in the first place).

Muggles may have all this - but can it prevent a group of ten wizards from wiping out an entire city the size of London if they wanted to? What stops them? Guns can't. Remember how irrelevant guns are to these people (the government has to tell them in an advisory about what a gun is)? Nukes are pointless - they can simply get together and put a spell on the area above them which prevents any nuke from detonating. Bombs can be contained.

Normal humans are totally impotent and powerless when facing magic, even if they outnumber the magic user a thousand to one.

Let me ask you this - how large an army would it take to take out Dumbeldore and Voldemort (if they decided to co-operate)? Would it even be possible?

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Such systems (racism, casteism, sexism, etc.) are wrong only if the people being discriminated against are being wrongly discriminated against. If they're actually inferior, is discrimination bad?

I don't normally call other posters evil, but in your case, I think I must make an exception.

Though you have justified colonialism, I guess (inferior technology / inferior power = discrimination ok for you).

Seems you completely misunderstood me.

I meant it as an open question - is it wrong? I don't know. Such a situation has never happened in human history , because we're all one species. But what if we weren't? What if there was some other species which could interbreed with humans, but was clearly superior in every way? And not superior because they have better technology (which is transferable), but because of innate, genetic differences?

Would discrimination against normal humans by, say, the Ravians (from my example) on the basis that humans were inferior be wrong? The author of that book has left it an open question. I still don't know the answer.

Do you?

[Kuciwalker]

Muggles may have all this - but can it prevent a group of ten wizards from wiping out an entire city the size of London if they wanted to? What stops them? Guns can't. Remember how irrelevant guns are to these people (the government has to tell them in an advisory about what a gun is)? Nukes are pointless - they can simply get together and put a spell on the area above them which prevents any nuke from detonating. Bombs can be contained.

I feel stupid for even participating in this particular debate, but a modern police force would have no trouble handling wizards, assuming they had even the vaguest clue about their abilities.