A thread about Civ!

[red_jon]

But still off-topic enough to be in the OT forum.

What civics do various countries currently have? Or what SHOULD they have?

I'm going with the UK-

Gov't - Representation - Well, is 'Universal Suffrage' until January 8th, when the Legislative and Regulatory Reform Act 2006 is enforced and Parliament becomes irrelevent...

Legal - Bureaucracy - Alllmost free speech, but for the amount of D-notices issued to the press, the increasing restrictions of information released under FoI and the number of Acts telling us what we can and can't say. Ok, so not almost free speech.

Labour - Emancipation - Woohoo, all good here.

Economy - Free Market - 'Nuff said.

Religion - Organised Religion - Ok, so in between this and 'free religion' - we are free to choose whatever religion we want (as long as we dress a certain way) but the Church of England still holds much governmental power.

So what has your nation's immortal civdeity decided to give you? And unless you're in Sweden it WON'T be all the bottom (or 'goody goody') civics

[Will9]

I'd say America is:

Universal Suffrage

Free Speech

Emancipation

Free Market

Theocracy (with Freedom of Religon)

For people who don't play civ4 look here for the civics.

[Lorizael]

Theocracy? Theocracy means other religions cannot spread in our cities. This would seem to contradict the current Muslim trend.

[red_jon]

See, I reckon the US has a quasi-cast system, rather than classes. The wealthiest and influential group are the WASPS - where race is tied in. The lowliest, poorest group (Hispanic individuals) are seen as 'dirty' by more than a few (including good, otherwise liberal American friends IRL) - similar in a sense to the untouchables of Hindu India.

[red_jon]

Hmm, where did this thread go?

[Drogue]

Re: A thread about Civ!

Originally posted by red_jon
Gov't - Representation - Well, is 'Universal Suffrage' until January 8th, when the Legislative and Regulatory Reform Act 2006 is enforced and Parliament becomes irrelevent...

How so? There are quite a lot of attached amendments and safeguards to stop ministers doing silly things. Moreover, since everybody can still vote, we still have universal suffrage, whatever power elected ministers have. Representation implies not everyone can vote, which is not true.

Originally posted by red_jon
Legal - Bureaucracy - Alllmost free speech, but for the amount of D-notices issued to the press, the increasing restrictions of information released under FoI and the number of Acts telling us what we can and can't say. Ok, so not almost free speech.

Perhaps between bureaucracy and free speech, but I don't think we're that far at all. Bureaucracy goes a lot further than incitement to hatred laws.

Originally posted by red_jon
Economy - Free Market - 'Nuff said.

I think we're moving towards environmentalism here. Yes, we're still far nearer free market, but both main parties are making lotys of postures towards environmentalism and the public seem to be following them.

Originally posted by red_jon
Religion - Organised Religion - Ok, so in between this and 'free religion' - we are free to choose whatever religion we want (as long as we dress a certain way) but the Church of England still holds much governmental power.

What power? Even the to-be head of the CoE says he's the "defender of the faiths" and does a lot of work promoting multi-culturalism and a multi-faith society. I do see the in between argument, as we do still have a state religion, but since everyone is free to practice whatever they want, I'd argue we're nearer to free religion.

So to me, the UK is:
Universal suffrage
Free speech (though I accept with some legislation, so there isn't really an option that's entirely correct here)
Emancipation
Free market
Free religion.

[red_jon]

Drogue - each to his own, but to me 'universal suffrage' isn't just about the right for all to vote, it's about how much your vote actually counts. As of January parliament can be overriden and the cabinet can make pretty much whatever laws they please (with nary more than a couple of weak provisos). That, at best, is semi-democratic, which is better reflected by 'representation', IMO.

I'll give a little ground on 'free speech', but the press aren't free to publish events the government really doesn't want them to. Maybe still closer to 'free speech' than 'bureaucracy', but still not fully there.

We've not moved towards environmentalism anywhere near enough to make any real difference, whilst the free market is encroaching into more and more public domains.

I'd go with organised religion as we haven't fully seperated church and state. Our state broadcaster devotes far more time to Christianity than any other religion (and not only on Sundays) - faith schools are also often funded by the state - the vast majority of those Christian.

In short, I respectfully disagree

[Arrian]

I'd quibble with the "caste system" comment, but it's really not worth it. Believe what you want.

-Arrian

[Lorizael]

If you can play basketball or football, or are Will Smith, you can break the American caste system.

[Wycoff]

Originally posted by Arrian
I'd quibble with the "caste system" comment, but it's really not worth it. Believe what you want.

-Arrian

Agreed

[aneeshm]

If we go by the laws of India:

Universal Suffrage
Free Speech
Emancipation
Free Market
Free Religion

[Datajack Franit]

You mean Indians no longer sniff monkey butts?

[red_jon]

Originally posted by Arrian
I'd quibble with the "caste system" comment, but it's really not worth it. Believe what you want.

-Arrian

[Wycoff]

Originally posted by red_jon

Have you ever been the to U.S.? Have you ever heard of places like West Virginia or Kentucky? There are probably at least as many WASPs in this country who would be regarded (in your words) as "untouchables" by upper class whites as there are blacks or hispanics.

Your comments betray a basic ignorance of the U.S. That's why it's pointless to argue with you about them

[red_jon]

Originally posted by Wycoff


Have you ever been the to U.S.? Have you ever heard of places like West Virginia or Kentucky? There are probably at least as many WASPs in this country who would be regarded (in your words) as "untouchables" by upper class whites as there are blacks or hispanics.

Your comments betray a basic ignorance of the U.S. That's why it's pointless to argue with you about them

I've been to the US a few times and have known (and befriended) several Americans in real life as well. Two have spent Christmas with me when they couldn't afford to return home. One was African-Asian-American. Having semblances of a caste system and having a full-blown caste system are different things. Race is more tied into the US social system than it is in Europe (though it is becoming more so here). In the UK class is far more prevalent than race in determining social position.

But calling me ignorant and not even bothering to answer me is the right thing to do, obviously...