Brave Iranian protestors

[Barnabas]

I was not talking about western europe, I was talking about syria, egypt etc /which belonged to the byzantine empire)

[Barnabas]

Pirenne mentions that early medieval documents used to be written with egyptian papirus, and that trade ended completely with the islamic conquest.
Also, even in the poorest barbarian kingdom in europe, that of the sueves in north west spain, you had nuns being transported by ship as pilgrims to jerusalem, that was completely cutted.

[germanos]

Originally posted by aneeshm


The concept of the zero DID NOT build on anything in the past. This I think you can agree with without any further study into the issue.

Please agree without further study


zero

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
What a lot of them have come up with is completely devaluing their contributions to the sciences, math, and preservation of Greek and Roman learning (the most egregious of the later being some who insist that the Irish preserved all that stuff and they would have made sure it continued on if the Muslims didn't). The arguments have turned on the Muslims didn't really come up with anything new. They just used old learning, etc.

On point, the Irish really did preserve most of the major Greek and Roman texts though I will give you that the Arabs certainly had more copies and made those copies more widely availible. The Byzantines also never "lost" or "forgot" the ancient Greek and Roman texts and indeed continually reporduced them throughout the Byzantine period which is how the Turks ended up knowing so much about the ancient world.

I do think I give credit where credit is due nor do I attempt to state that muslims never came up with anything of value or originality. I do ask that claims be backed up with good scholorship and several of the most common claims have been partially correct or exagerated (examples the keeping of ancient texts or the invention of distilling liquor). Never the less the Arab world, and indeed the larger muslim world, has come up with several valuable innovations and for a period was more stable and innovative then the west. China of course is another great but often over looked center of original thinking.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

These are European ideas? Nice way to totally avoid the question.

One could argue that the Greeks and Romans came up with many innovative and completely original ideas though I am sure many of them were helped along by previous discoveries made in places like the fertile cresant or ancient Persia.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Brachy-Pride

If the muslims did something good for europe, it was not the greek knowledge thing, but putting westerners in contact with previously unknown persian, indian and chinese knowlegde.

By 1300 europe was much more advanced than during roman times, and to an important degree due to that.

Yes, I would say this would be a much more unique contribution.

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by lord of the mark

Seriously, per Pirenne, much of the decline of urban life (and culture) in western europe happened not after the fall of Rome, but after the Arab expansion, which broke key trade routes.

The main break came when Tamerlane conquered that city in Central Asia (wish I could remembers it's name Kas-something? Kasghar?? ). But was he Muslim??

(Do you get the feeling I don't really know what I'm talking about?)

[Barnabas]

Samarkand

And yes he was a muslim

And that happened when the middle ages where almsot over

So I dont understand what you meant

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Zkribbler


The main break came when Tamerlane conquered that city in Central Asia (wish I could remembers it's name Kas-something? Kasghar?? ). But was he Muslim??

(Do you get the feeling I don't really know what I'm talking about?)

since tamerlane was circa 1400, and the period Pirenne is discussing is 400 CE to 800 CE or so, Id have to yes to that last. Sorry.

[Zkribbler]

Okay, let's backup a few steps.

IIRC, the China Road stayed open until Tamerlane closed it. So what this: "much of the decline of urban life (and culture) in western europe happened not after the fall of Rome, but after the Arab expansion, which broke key trade routes."

[Dinner]

I'm still confused about how pointing out that knowledge was preserved through a verity of sources is some how racist. It doesn't mean Arab scribes were worthless just that the much vonted claim of preserving ancient texts was not unique and indeed as a matter of history it was not unique since other sources did the same thing. Pointing out that other people did the same thing at the same time doesn't mean the Arab copies were worthless though I can see how some people might get their pride hurt if they felt Arabs were the only ones responsible for this.

As I said before the Arab scribes did produce more copies then anyone else so their work was valuable, just not unique.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Zkribbler
Okay, let's backup a few steps.

IIRC, the China Road stayed open until Tamerlane closed it. So what this: "much of the decline of urban life (and culture) in western europe happened not after the fall of Rome, but after the Arab expansion, which broke key trade routes."

the key trade routes in question are the ones across the med sea, esp the Western Med. NOT the Silk Road. But after the Arab expansion the traditional sea routes connecting Western europe with the silk road, via sea to Constantinople, Antioch, and Alexandria were broken by Arab naval action and piracy in the Western Med and raiding of coastal towns in the Western Med. Connections continued to the east via inland routes to Constantinople and Kiev (which latter had its own golden age shortly afterwards) theres debate on the relative importance of these routes, and on a whole bunch of other related Q's, which is why I said Pirenne is subject to revisions and counter revisions.

Note that the Western Med was reopened to navigation by europeans after 1000 CE, which was associated with the revival of trade and urban life.

[GePap]

To return to the point of the thread, IIRC state television showed this protest on its channels.

As for LOTM's assertions, I think this government is certainly more democratic that the Shah's regime in all senses of that word. The problem is collusion and close mindedness on the part of the top conservative clerics that hold power. For example, the fact that the Council of Experts really doesn't do much or have any influence on the head of state, even though the Council which is elected, can remove the head of state.

[LordShiva]

If only Molly were still here