Brave Iranian protestors

[Jack_www]

The only problem with all of this, the true power is not in the hands of the President of Iran, it is with the religious leaders. They are the ones controlling Iran, and that is who the students should be protesting, but I still think that it is a good step.

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by aneeshm
Iran was still Islamic under the Shah. I'm talking about the classical civilisation of Persia that was finished by the first Muslim expansion.

Yes, the Persian Empire was veritably a democratic liberal paradise

[red_jon]

Originally posted by aneeshm


Buddhist Thailand seems to be getting along quite nicely. IIRC, the Thai monarch helped democracy protesters against an attempted military coup. So is Bhutan - the king deciding to voluntarily turn his country into a political system resembling Great Britain (constitutional monarchy, with the king having even LESS powers and more accountability than the current British monarch). Seems some religions take to democracy more readily than some others.

And in case you're not aware, Britain IS an officially Protestant nation. IIRC, one of the titles of the monarch is the Defender of the Faith.

I'm very aware that Britain is a Protestant nation (actually quite insulting to insinuate I don't considering I'm doing a PhD, live here and am part of a minority religion)- however, the point was about announcing a religion in the NAME of a nation. AFAIK Thailand does not have 'Buddhist' in its title.

I'm not huge fan of any monotheistic religion - however, it's extremely ignorant to suggest that Islam is less democratic in nature than the other Abrahamic religions - Christianity or Judaism.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by aneeshm
Where did the Hindu institutions go? They were destroyed by the Muslims who invaded India. Why is it that not a single Hindu or Buddhist university survives today? It's not because they lost patronage, it's because they were physically exterminated.

You can judge us when our institutions are back and we are fully in control again, now when we are recovering from a thousand years of imperialist rule.

The caste system seemed to survive until fairly recently, and there are still remnants of it today. Oppressive Hindus .

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Pekka
Also these students are muslim and know Islam, so I don't know what the whole ruckus is about. These students still recognize a dictator when they see one, a one that will be counterproductive to their country. Someone who would shut down their path of higher learning. So, as muslims, they have prioritized it higher than the fundie drooling of their leader.

True dat. The students are interested in returning to the Islamic tradition of scholarship and learning, which was especially prevalent during the European Middle Ages.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by LordShiva


Yes, the Persian Empire was veritably a democratic liberal paradise

Persia under Cyrus and his descendants WAS a multi-cultural, multi-religious empire.

Jews have, IIUC, traditionally regarded Cyrus as the model of a just Gentile king.

Its not surprising that during the 6th c wars between Byzantium and Persia, Jews and monophysites in Syria/Judea tended to favor Persia.

The world DID lose something valuable when old Persia succumbed, although, OTOH, much of Persian civ was passed on to Islamic civ, and much of the best of Islamic civ WAS of old Persian origin.

The Shah was not necessarily wrong in talking about reviving Persian civ, though he may have been insincere, and he was wildly unrealistic about the situation in Iran.

There WERE elected bodies under the Shah, though they were limited in their power, much as such bodies are today in the Islamic Republic of Iran. The Shah also limited free expression - Im not sure political expression is any freer now, though IIUC the body count under the Shah (from suppression of dissidents that is) was higher. It doesnt take as much blood when youre not forcing people to break their old way of life.

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by aneeshm
Loss of freedom is an inevitable consequences of putting "Islamic" in a country's name, isn't it?

I think that's because the use of the word "Islamic" in a country's name, implies theocracy. There, the individual must bend his will to the will of God, as put forth by the imams.

Christianity went through a similar period during the "Divine Right of Kings." It was God who supposedly put the kings on their thrones; thus individuals were suppose to bend their will to that of the king.

Hooray for the Enlightenment, when individuals became the "sovereigns," and "rulers" became subject to the will of the citizenry.

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui


True dat. The students are interested in returning to the Islamic tradition of scholarship and learning, which was especially prevalent during the European Middle Ages.

Don't make me laugh, Imran. Islamic "scholarship" is an oxymoron. Please point to one revolutionary idea which came out of the Muslim world (something which was a clean ideological break with the past, a paradigm shift). I doubt you will find anything.

And as for this great tradition - it seems the Muslims didn't like it when others were scholars. They destroyed ALL the great universities of India. Not one remains.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by aneeshm
Don't make me laugh, Imran. Islamic "scholarship" is an oxymoron. Please point to one revolutionary idea which came out of the Muslim world (something which was a clean ideological break with the past, a paradigm shift). I doubt you will find anything.

Wow... an aneeshm's true colors come out. What a bigot .

Ibn Al-Haitham, for example, is considered the Father of Optics for using the scientific method to prove that sight worked by light entering the eye, not by the eye emitting anything. Other Islamic advances in math and science, building on past Greco-Roman and Asian discoveries, were hailed by the European scholars who came later.

[Barnabas]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui


True dat. The students are interested in returning to the Islamic tradition of scholarship and learning, which was especially prevalent during the European Middle Ages.

[Dinner]

Pahlavi was surely a vicious dictator and a wasteful egomaniac. It's a shame a more sensible reformer hadn't taken power in Iran like what occured in Turkey. The 19th century Pahlavis were very open to the outside world and pushed strongly for modernization and reform but it seems their efforts were in vain.

[Imran Siddiqui]

The last Shah was definately in a Saddam Hussein model of dictator (though potentially worse). The difference in Iran was that, in the end, Pahlavi pissed off too many people from all aspects of society, while Hussein kept at least one major group (the Sunnis) happy.

[Dinner]

True, it was mainly his use of his secret police, arresting people just for suspicion without proof, and general repressiveness which did him in. Then of course there was the complete corruption at all levels of government and the massive multimillion dollar parties for the nobility while the average people continually saw their standard of living erode. Pahlavi was not a good leader and he clearly wasn't up to the task of modernizing and reforming such a backwards and tradition bound country even if he had wanted to.

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui


Wow... an aneeshm's true colors come out. What a bigot .

Ibn Al-Haitham, for example, is considered the Father of Optics for using the scientific method to prove that sight worked by light entering the eye, not by the eye emitting anything. Other Islamic advances in math and science, building on past Greco-Roman and Asian discoveries, were hailed by the European scholars who came later.

Now it is bigotedness to say that I think that no revolutionary change came out of the Muslim world in its time of glory?

Sorry for not making myself clear. I wanted an example of something in the realm of purely ideas (philosophy or mathematics, or other similar fields), which did NOT build on anything in the past,but broke with it, something which was a total paradigm shift.

To take an example of what I'm talking about - something as radical as Buddhist or Jaina or Advaita philosophy, or the concept of the zero and a number system, was to India.

[Dinner]

The Arabs did make big advances in chemistry and possibly were the first people to make distilled spirits though the jury is out on the distilling part. It could also have been Coptic Christians in Egypt or Armenians in Asia Minor. Still, given how advanced chemistry was in Arabia it likely was an advance which Arabs came up with and then nonmuslims applied to making liquor.