WWI: What if the U.S. stayed neutral?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Ned


LoTM, my sister lived in Germany in the '60s and reported a general hostilty to Americans, particularly among the WWII generation. I assume this had something to do with the war.

So, why would it have been any different post WWI?

1. Ive met numerous GIs and others whove indicated great friendliness to Americans on the part of Germans. Dare I ask if you sisters personality resembles yours?

2. Assuming there was hostility on the part of SOME older Germans, somecritical differences might include that the US fought against Germany for several years during WW2, and in the last year we had a massive troop presence, both in contrast to WW1. The effect of large scale strategic bombing might also be there.

[Ned]

BTW, when I was in law school, I met a Ukrainian refugee who was in the Soviet army at the time. He was captured in the opening phases of the war and spent the rest of the war in a German prison camp.

He confirmed to me the view that the USSR planned to attack Germany.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Ned


LoTM, Europe was choosing sides early in the war. Some were Brit and French allies. Some were German allies. Some were neutral. Germany did not invade or occupy the neutrals, its friends or its allies.

The attack on the USSR was a different matter. Germany had a pact with Stalin. But he thought, after the fall of France and England's refusal of his peace offer, that England and Stalin had reached a deal that called for a Soviet attack on him. Somewhat confirming this was a general USSR mobilization and movement of large numbers of troops to the German front.

When Germany attacked, it encounter millions of Soviet troops on its border whose officers stated that they had planned their own attack on Hitler later that summer. But, of course, this must be German propaganda as it doesn't fit the template that Germany was the aggressor, planning to conquer the whole world, and that Stalin, at time at least, was a saint.

1. Denmark, Norway, The Netherlands, and Belgium were ALL neutrals, and ALL were invaded by Germany. Stop lying.

2. Yes the latter is Nazi propaganda. Given the USSRs lack of preparation for war, the whole idea is absurd. Theres no evidence for it in the soviet archives. And no, I dont beleive the results of German interrogations of Soviet officers on this matter. Why I dont believe them, is best left to the reader.

3. Hitler had been planning war on the USSR for some time. I leave it to Molly to provide cites.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Ned
BTW, when I was in law school, I met a Ukrainian refugee who was in the Soviet army at the time. He was captured in the opening phases of the war and spent the rest of the war in a German prison camp.

He confirmed to me the view that the USSR planned to attack Germany.

He was a member of the Soviet General Staff?

[Ned]

Originally posted by lord of the mark



The area occupied by Germany in 1939 included very large Jewish populations, including Warsaw, which had the largest Jewish community in Poland, Lodz, and Cracow.

Did you ever see Schindlers List, Ned? The beginning involves Schindlers acquisition of a Jewish owned factory, in the wake of the germany conquest, in Cracow.

Yes I say Schindler's list.

May I suggest that from a Jew living in Poland at the time, particularly in Warsaw or Krackow, I would have favored peace talks that would have lead to a German withdrawal from Poland rather than what happened.

[Ned]

Originally posted by lord of the mark



1. Denmark, Norway, The Netherlands, and Belgium were ALL neutrals, and ALL were invaded by Germany. Stop lying.

2. Yes the latter is Nazi propaganda. Given the USSRs lack of preparation for war, the whole idea is absurd. Theres no evidence for it in the soviet archives. And no, I dont beleive the results of German interrogations of Soviet officers on this matter. Why I dont believe them, is best left to the reader.

3. Hitler had been planning war on the USSR for some time. I leave it to Molly to provide cites.

Lying? I have a hard time understanding, then, why some neutral were invaded and some were not. Please explain German madness to me.

The German plan for war against the USSR began on Dec. 18, 1940, IIRC.

As to Soviet plans, I can understand your skepticism. But you cannot deny that millions of Soviet troops were at the border when Hitler attacked.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Ned


Yes I say Schindler's list.

May I suggest that from a Jew living in Poland at the time, particularly in Warsaw or Krackow, I would have favored peace talks that would have lead to a German withdrawal from Poland rather than what happened.

But what was asserted was that Hitler wouldnt have had reason to implement the final solution because he hadnt done so in Germany pre-war. What I responded was that this was different, because post-1939 Hitler ruled many more Jews(among other reasons). You believed that there were few Jews in the area of Poland Hitler occupied. You were wrong.

Now instead of trying to change the subject, why dont you admit you lack sufficient knowledge to discuss the subject, and go back and learn some more first?

[Ned]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


He was a member of the Soviet General Staff?

No a grunt.

Which means he didn't know much.

But the fact that he spent six years in a prison camp and survived to tell us about tells us a lot about how barbarous the German army was. According to Molly, not one single Slav should have survived even a few months in German captivity.

In truth, the barbarous ones in the war were the Soviets who mass-murdered captured prisoners.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Ned


Lying? I have a hard time understanding, then, why some neutral were invaded and some were not. Please explain German madness to me.

Why is it up to me to explain German Grand Strategy? Are you actually saying that unless Germany invaded every neutral, from Switzerland to Argentina to Thailand, then Norway and the Netherlands werent neutral???

Are you actually claiming they werent?

Are you a liar, or are you just that ignorant?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Ned


No a grunt.

Which means he didn't know much.

Precisely, so why are you citing him as evidence of a planned Soviet attack.


I will not respond to your attempt to change the subject when you are again proven wrong.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Ned

As to Soviet plans, I can understand your skepticism. But you cannot deny that millions of Soviet troops were at the border when Hitler attacked.

Damned Russians. They should have left the border clear, so that the Germans would have an easier time with their invasion. No wonder the Germans were so pissed at them.

Russians, keeping an army on the border, at the precise time the Germans had set to invade. Britain, refusing to allow Germany to dominate Europe. FDR, likewise. Damn, it was just like, so unfair!!!!

[Ned]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


But what was asserted was that Hitler wouldnt have had reason to implement the final solution because he hadnt done so in Germany pre-war. What I responded was that this was different, because post-1939 Hitler ruled many more Jews(among other reasons). You believed that there were few Jews in the area of Poland Hitler occupied. You were wrong.

Now instead of trying to change the subject, why dont you admit you lack sufficient knowledge to discuss the subject, and go back and learn some more first?

I am no expert. But I think that if the war had stopped, there would have been no "final solution" even for German Jews. They would have been expelled from Germany in some fashion, true. But they probably would have ended up in Israel or the United States.

[Ned]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


Why is it up to me to explain German Grand Strategy? Are you actually saying that unless Germany invaded every neutral, from Switzerland to Argentina to Thailand, then Norway and the Netherlands werent neutral???

Are you actually claiming they werent?

Are you a liar, or are you just that ignorant?

They weren't really neutral is my point. They were as much neutral as the US was neutral.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Ned


I am no expert. But I think that if the war had stopped, there would have been no "final solution" even for German Jews. They would have been expelled from Germany in some fashion, true. But they probably would have ended up in Israel or the United States.

Well I dont think so. Nazi ideology indicated Jews were at least as dangerous to Germany outside as in.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Ned


They weren't really neutral is my point. They were as much neutral as the US was neutral.

Except thats not true. Denmark, the Netherlands, and Norway were quite neutral.