No Big Bang

[Lul Thyme]

Re: Re: Re: No Big Bang

Originally posted by Ned


Michael the Great, I'd like you to take a look at these simple geometry discussion at the very beginning of the cited article that addresses the issue of earth moving away from the universe's center as the other star systems are also moving away. The distances from the Earth to the various star systems would very as a cosine function and not lineraliy.

The proposition that only one Galaxy in the universe is actually moving toward us to provide a blue shift seems impossible on its face. At least some galaxy somewhere in the universe, rotating about its local star cluster, should be moving toward us even as the star cluster is moving away. These should be blue shifted. But we see no such blue shifting anywhere except locally. This implies that there is a relationship between distance and red shifting that overcomes any blue shifting caused by movement towards Earth.

As far as I understand the situation is this.
Things move.
Now super impose that movement on the expansion of the universe.
The expansion means that further things are, more they seem to move away from us, more or less proportionnaly (hubble's constant and what not).
That means that to be blue shifted, something has to be moving towards us at a certain speed WHICH DEPENDS ON THE DISTANCE from us.
So it's very natural that you would get very few blue shifted objects, and that they would all be nearby.

[Lul Thyme]

Originally posted by TheStinger
Could the someone explain the following for me.

IIRC the furthest objects we see are aprox 12 billion light years away although I'm not sure if the actual figure is that important.

However if light takes 12 billion years to reach us how can we observe them. what is the actual situation, are they 12 billion light years away or arewe just observing something 12 billion years ago. If it is the case that we are obseving something that tookplace 12 billion light years in a positional sense how did we get that far away.

I may just be stupid and I'm not sure I've even asked a question it might just be the numbers are too big.

If the universe was static, then both would be true.
We would be looking at an object 12 billion years away as it was 12 billions years ago.

the expansion of the universe complicates things a bit and I think that such an object would actually be farther in this case.

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by Lul Thyme


As far as I understand the situation is this.
Things move.
Now super impose that movement on the expansion of the universe.
The expansion means that further things are, more they seem to move away from us, more or less proportionnaly (hubble's constant and what not).
That means that to be blue shifted, something has to be moving towards us at a certain speed WHICH DEPENDS ON THE DISTANCE from us.
So it's very natural that you would get very few blue shifted objects, and that they would all be nearby.

Exactly (as far as my understanding goes).

For an analogy:
Imagine a balloon that is being inflated.
Draw 2 points on this balloon and you will observe that they will move away from each other during the process of inflation and they will do it with a greater speed the larger the distance between them is.

[Ned]

Lul, Seem?

[Ned]

How can galaxies be older than the universe?

[Ned]

If we are on the balloon surface, why do we see galaxies in all directions, not just "inward."

[Lul Thyme]

Originally posted by Ned
Lul, Seem?

I'm not sure I catch your drift.

[Lul Thyme]

Originally posted by Ned
If we are on the balloon surface, why do we see galaxies in all directions, not just "inward."

I have no idea what you mean by "inward".
If you take the SURFACE of the balloon as being the universe, then for someone in that universe, there are in fact galaxies in all the direction...



If this makes it too hard for you, imagine instead a possibly infinite loaf of bread with raising in it, and the loaf of bread is growing (maybe it's being cooked?). all the raisins are moving away from all the other raisins, and further raisins are moving away faster.

[Ned]

Lul, the balloon expands, it is at a constant rate (right?). Stars opposite us, across the balloon would move away at 2 x. Stars near us would move away at much less than 2 x. But 2 x is the limit.

But x is a relatively low velocity. Why don't we see galaxies and other objects moving faster than that towards us as they spin about star clusters?

[Ned]

Lul, stand on the balloon and look up.

[KrazyHorse]

Re: Re: Re: No Big Bang

Originally posted by Ned


Michael the Great, I'd like you to take a look at these simple geometry discussion at the very beginning of the cited article that addresses the issue of earth moving away from the universe's center as the other star systems are also moving away. The distances from the Earth to the various star systems would very as a cosine function and not lineraliy.

You are a ****ing idiot.

[Lul Thyme]

Originally posted by Ned
Lul, the balloon expands, it is at a constant rate (right?). Stars opposite us, across the balloon would move away at 2 x. Stars near us would move away at much less than 2 x. But 2 x is the limit.

But x is a relatively low velocity. Why don't we see galaxies and other objects moving faster than that towards us as they spin about star clusters?

First, your 2 in 2x is meaningless since you didnt define x, but I understand what you're saying.
You're always trying to carry the analogy too far.
The balloon is much bigger then the event horizon, so the observable universe is like a circle centered on the Earth on the baloon, so your "maximum" argument doesn't apply.

[KrazyHorse]

Re: Re: Re: No Big Bang

Originally posted by Ned


It is my understanding that some of the galaxies 14+ billion light years from us are 20 billion years old.

There are no galaxies visible 14 billion light years from us.

[Lul Thyme]

Originally posted by Ned
Lul, stand on the balloon and look up.

I told you, that direction doesn't exists in that universe.
Take the bread example if that suits you better I already told you.

[Lul Thyme]

Btw KH what's the avatar.
I guess it had to do with cdn pols but I ve been away some.
Is it the guy that was deported to Syria?