Well, I did it.

[Wittlich]

Originally posted by Wiglaf
... but maybe you are Giancarlo, I get mixed up.

Them be fighting words!

[MrFun]

Originally posted by SpencerH


I'm glad you agree. The term 'Doctor' should be reserved for those who have written and defended a doctoral thesis based upon their own research.

By the way, I do not earn the title doctor until I earn my Ph.D. And right now, I do not have the desire to do so but there's the possibility of changing my mind in the future.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by SpencerH


I'm glad you agree. The term 'Doctor' should be reserved for those who have written and defended a doctoral thesis based upon their own research.

Did I mention that I have a Ph.D. and a M.D.?

Do you have any idea how much writing is involved in medical care? I'd estimate the average admission note to be around 3 pages and the average discharge to be about the same length. Let's say that the average student picks up 2 patients/day and releases the same number. That's 12 pages/day, not to mention daily progress notes. A medical student might easily write over 4000 pages just in clinicals before graduating. The student has to present each patient every day to his attending. His diagnosis and treatment plans have to be defended. Most students will present a case of special interest before a group of physicians at least once or twice/week. He'll need to do extra preparation for the group presentations. Interrogation is generally pretty rigorous. There are always a few attendings who delight in humiliating students. No matter how good you are there is always something only peripherally related to the case which someone can pull out of his a** to put you down.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove


Did I mention that I have a Ph.D. and a M.D.?

Do you have any idea how much writing is involved in medical care? I'd estimate the average admission note to be around 3 pages and the average discharge to be about the same length. Let's say that the average student picks up 2 patients/day and releases the same number. That's 12 pages/day, not to mention daily progress notes. A medical student might easily write over 4000 pages just in clinicals before graduating. The student has to present each patient every day to his attending. His diagnosis and treatment plans have to be defended. Most students will present a case of special interest before a group of physicians at least once or twice/week. He'll need to do extra preparation for the group presentations. Interrogation is generally pretty rigorous. There are always a few attendings who delight in humiliating students. No matter how good you are there is always something only peripherally related to the case which someone can pull out of his a** to put you down.

ok

[Lancer]

I'm thinking of making a DL, 'DrFun' and selling it to you for a million bucks when you're rich. Good idea?

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Lancer
I'm thinking of making a DL, 'DrFun' and selling it to you for a million bucks when you're rich. Good idea?

It would only be legit though after/if I later earn my Ph.D.

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by MrFun


After they asked me to open the session with a summary of my thesis topic and argument, they asked questions that led me to recall what I had already explicated in my thesis, and they asked other questions in possible areas that could call for elaboration in a future work, such as a scholarly article. One or two questions challenged me to defend the validity of the argument itself, and the method I used to advance the argument.


As for what my thesis is about, read one of my previous posts.

By question I meant does your thesis address whether "a strong, but minority movement of racial egalitarianism" existed in Illinois during that time or were you addressing the effects of the movement on the republican party, or something else?

Your thesis is the answer to the questions you pose.

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by MrFun



By the way, I do not earn the title doctor until I earn my Ph.D.

I know that.

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove


Did I mention that I have a Ph.D. and a M.D.?

I know that too.

Do you have any idea how much writing is involved in medical care? I'd estimate the average admission note to be around 3 pages and the average discharge to be about the same length. Let's say that the average student picks up 2 patients/day and releases the same number. That's 12 pages/day, not to mention daily progress notes. A medical student might easily write over 4000 pages just in clinicals before graduating. The student has to present each patient every day to his attending. His diagnosis and treatment plans have to be defended. Most students will present a case of special interest before a group of physicians at least once or twice/week. He'll need to do extra preparation for the group presentations. Interrogation is generally pretty rigorous. There are always a few attendings who delight in humiliating students. No matter how good you are there is always something only peripherally related to the case which someone can pull out of his a** to put you down.

How much writing a med student (or anyone else) does is totally irrelevant to the question of what defines a 'doctor'. Until the title was recently usurped, it required that someone researched a question, wrote down their answer in a thesis to answer the question, they nailed their thesis (publically announced it), then defended that thesis before a group of already existing doctors (usually professors). If their thesis was accepted then they could claim the title.

I see no reason to use a different definition. It irritates me no end to see names presented on TV such as Linus Pauling Ph.D. (Linus Pauling wasnt a doctor!!!!!!) but Dr. (?) Bob Arnot.

Anyway, I didnt mean to threadjack. I was just pointing out to MF that his effort had some unique merits.

[Lul Thyme]

Couldn't a similar argument be made for Master's and Lawyer's or something like that?
I'm not very familiar with all this and too lazy to look it up.

[snoopy369]

City Colleges of Chicago are sort of 4 year colleges but are essentially community colleges; from what I could tell, Masters is the minimum requirement here.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by SpencerH


I know that too.




How much writing a med student (or anyone else) does is totally irrelevant to the question of what defines a 'doctor'. Until the title was recently usurped, it required that someone researched a question, wrote down their answer in a thesis to answer the question, they nailed their thesis (publically announced it), then defended that thesis before a group of already existing doctors (usually professors). If their thesis was accepted then they could claim the title.

I see no reason to use a different definition. It irritates me no end to see names presented on TV such as Linus Pauling Ph.D. (Linus Pauling wasnt a doctor!!!!!!) but Dr. (?) Bob Arnot.

Anyway, I didnt mean to threadjack. I was just pointing out to MF that his effort had some unique merits.

One might ask which came first, the use of the title 'doctor' by physicians or the use of the same title by the highest degree holders in the arts and sciences.

[SpencerH]

I would say that the first were the clergy

some text from wiki

Throughout most of the academic world, the term "doctor" refers to an individual who earned a Doctor of Philosophy, or Ph.D. (an abbreviation for the Latin Philosophiæ Doctor; or alternatively Doctor philosophiæ, D.Phil., originally from the Greek Διδακτορ Φιλοσοφιας meaning Teacher of Philosophy). The Ph.D. was originally a degree granted by a university to learned individuals who had achieved the approval of their peers and who had demonstrated a long and productive career in the field of philosophy. The appellation of "Doctor" (from Latin: teacher) was usually awarded only when the individual was in middle age. It indicated a life dedicated to learning, to knowledge, and to the spread of knowledge.

The degree was popularized in the 19th century at the Friedrich Wilhelm University in Berlin as a degree to be granted to someone who had undertaken original research in the sciences or humanities. From there it spread to the United States, arriving at Yale University in 1861, and then to the United Kingdom in 1921. This displaced the existing Doctor of Philosophy degree in some Universities; for instance, the D.Phil. (higher doctorate in the faculty of philosophy) at the University of St Andrews was discontinued and replaced with the Ph.D. (research doctorate). However, some UK universities such as Oxford, York and Sussex retain the D.Phil. appellation for their research degrees, as does the University of Waikato in New Zealand.

Some ability to carry out original research must be documented by producing a dissertation or thesis, often of substantial length. The degree and title "doctor" is often a prerequisite for permanent (or nearly permanent) employment as a university lecturer or as a researcher in some sciences, though this varies on a regional basis. In others such as engineering or geology, a doctoral degree is considered desirable but not essential for employment. In a small but growing number of fields, the doctorate is felt to injure employment prospects by causing 'overqualification' for the job.


Medical profession
From the nineteenth century onward, "doctor" has been commonly, but incorrectly, used as a synonym for "physician" in Anglophone and many other countries; this term is commonly used as a title of address for physicians, whether or not they hold a doctorate. The primary medical qualification in the UK and in many Commonwealth countries are the 'Bachelor of Medicine and Bachelor of Surgery' degrees (MB BS, MB BCh, MB ChB, BM BCh or MB BChir, depending on the University granting the award). In the UK the title "Dr" is officially conferred by the General Medical Council to graduates whose names are included on the list of 'registered medical practitioners', a prerequisite to medical practice in the UK. After qualification, medical practitioners may read for the postgraduate research degree of 'Doctor of Medicine'.

In the United States, however, the degrees Medicinae Doctor (Latin, "Doctor of Medicine") and Doctor of Osteopathy (D.O.) are the qualifying degrees. There is no prefatory undergraduate medical degree, but students theoretically may enter an M.D. or D.O program with a baccalaureate in any subject. Practically, however, most "Pre-Med" students take their undergraduate degrees with a major/minor concentration in biology and/or chemistry. American medical schools expect a baccalaureate degree to have been completed prior to admission to an M.D. or D.O. program. However, many medical schools also allow for some students to matriculate prior to completing their baccalaureate degree provided that they have successfully completed at least three years of undergraduate course work.

In American and Canadian parlance, "doctor" is most often used for all types of physicians and surgeons, including internists, pediatricians, psychiatrists, gynecologists, and all other surgical and nonsurgical specialists who hold M.D. or D.O. degrees. The term may also apply to other fields of healthcare, to which the degrees 'M.D.' and 'D.O.' are inapplicable, including doctors of Chiropractic (D.C.), doctors of Naturopathic Medicine (N.D.), doctors of Pharmacy (Pharm.D.), doctors of Physical Therapy (D.P.T.), doctors of Podiatric Medicine (D.P.M.), doctors of Optometry (O.D.), doctors of Audiology (Au.D.), doctors of Dental Surgery/Dental Medicine (D.D.S./D.M.D.) and so on.

Note, though, that this is not the case in Germany, where a doctoral degree, and the title "Doktor" is only awarded to medical students if they complete a separate research thesis during their medical studies. The status of being a licenced physician (an "Arzt") is quite separate from this and comes from passing Medical Board Exams set by one of the German states ( Lander). A German physician who is licenced to practise medicine (passed his/her medical exams) but did not complete a research thesis would consider it inaccurate and even improper to style him/herself "Dr". They would typically write their qualifications in the form (in English): "State Med Exam (state)(year)" rather than the "MD" MB BS" or "MB ChB" familiar in Anglophone countries.

[Datajack Franit]

Mr.Fun master of oral exams

[Zkribbler]

Way to go, Master Fun.