Chavez wins

[Whoha]

No, that was not a failed coup, Chavez won.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Yes, but we lost it supporting the Contras, propping up murderous dictatorships in Guatemala and El Salvador, invading Panama, etc.

El Salvador?

Im old enough to remember that under Carter we spent several years propping up the Christian Dems and keeping the far right OUT of power. They were finally elected cause neither we nor our CD friends had succeeded in stoping the violence perpetrated by the FMLN.

Contras - you mean the guys who Ortega is working with? well it looks like Mr Ortega, at least, is eager to be friendly to the US, and to maintain a policy of free trade and debt repayment. Maybe old dogs CAN learn new tricks.

[Ned]

One of the things I would like to know is why Latin Americans, on the whole, believe in the far left? Socialism, whereever actually implemented in Latin America brings what one would expect, economic collapse and stagnation.

[Odin]

Originally posted by Ned


Che, I think in every case, US invovlement was predicated on a direct threat to American corporate intrests that were treating the locals like crap.

Corrected.

[Barnabas]

Originally posted by Ned
One of the things I would like to know is why Latin Americans, on the whole, believe in the far left? Socialism, whereever actually implemented in Latin America brings what one would expect, economic collapse and stagnation.

It is probably cultural, the spanish were not friends of capitalism and free trade, like the dutch or english, and amerindian cultures were very communal here, the incas were almost communists, and the catholic church is also rather anti libertarian both in social issues of personal freedom and in economics, the church believed that there was a "fair prize" and that selling above that prize was sinful, that giving loans for an interest was sinful, that god blesses the poor etc the jesuit missions naturally evolved into a quite communistic direction
BTW
(you can find articles in the internet from protestant anti-catholics about how the catholic church invented communism and how the jesuitic missions were a communist experiment of the catholic church)

Spain + Catholic Church + Pre columbian cultures is not a combo that produces love for free trade and capitalism, I think south america ahs a natural tendency towards communalism, and strong authority figures

[Ned]

Odin, to a Marxist, anyone making a buck treats his employees like crap, not so?

[dannubis]

go live in SA and get treated like a local. then come back and tell us how you like that.

[Ned]

Dan, I am not sure what you mean. My wife is Brazilian, so I fully know of their attitudes about Americans.

In a nutshell, foreign investment is bad -- it is exploitation.

Now, ask the same of any Asian country or India, and I am very, very sure you would find a diametrically opposed answer.

So, the bottom line is that SA is very, very leftist in its basic views. They actually believe Marxist propaganda insofar as it teaches that bringing jobs and technology to a country from abroad is bad.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Brachy-Pride
(you can find articles in the internet from protestant anti-catholics about how the catholic church invented communism and how the jesuitic missions were a communist experiment of the catholic church)

Yeah, but these were the same nutters who earlier claimed communism was a Jewish conspiracy. I never did understand how they could claim Jews were the lead bankers/industrialist exploiters but why the Jews also favored communism.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Ned
So, the bottom line is that SA is very, very leftist in its basic views. They actually believe Marxist propaganda insofar as it teaches that bringing jobs and technology to a country from abroad is bad.

Im not so sure. Chile and Brazil just have moderate social democrat govts, that tod welcome tech and investment. Even Argentina is mainly a market economy, if less cooperative with international lending agencies, but then they have reasons to complain about their experience in 2001. Mexico and central Amer are all open to investment - even Daniel Ortega, old Sandinista, thinks its a good idea.

What youre seeing in Bolivia and Venezuala is due to an extreme version of three things that have historically pushed Lat Am to the left 1. economies very dependent on natural resources (which means A. Theres less obvious danger from leftist policies, since the resources will still be there, unlike say factories B. Theres often less positive spillover to the whole economy than from other sectors C. They are very tied to foreign markets, which makes them vulnerable to nationalist thoughts)) 2. Very high degrees of income inequality and 3. That income inequalities often correlate closely with race

[Ned]

LoTM, I agree that much of SA is recovering from its extreme leftism, almost like a drunk swearing off drinking after he has experienced the hangover.

[Odin]

Originally posted by Ned They actually believe Marxist propaganda insofar as it teaches that bringing jobs and technology to a country from abroad is bad.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Whoha
No, that was not a failed coup, Chavez won.

Chavez failed in the only coup attempt he made. A few years ago, there was an attempted coup against him that obviously failed.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Why would he do that?

To ensure the future of the Bolivarian revolution once he's gone or unpopular.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Spiffor

To ensure the future of the Bolivarian revolution once he's gone or unpopular.

What in his actions tells you he'd care about that?