"Member nations must accept difficult assignments"

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by laurentius



I think it does dictate that to a certain degree. The opposition to the Iraq war among the NATO itself was the only thing keeping NATO away from there. It is an unlawful war.

The mission in Afghanistan is much more legal and legitimate. Even we are there. My point once again was that if the US wasent stuck in Iraq its role and commitment in Afghanistan would be more profound.

well said. Why didn't you just say this in the first place?

[laurentius]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


I dont think anyones complaining about the eastern europeans (in fact Poland has offered 1000 troops for southern Afghanistan) - its France, Germany, Spain, that are at issue.

Alright. So France, Germany and Spain are restricted in their participation. But there are different levels of participation and has always been. I think their domestic politics make it very difficult for them to take part in some of the more "hot" missions. Germany with its restricted military , France with its general opposition to anything and Spain with its Socialist govt.

It just strikes me as insolent to state something like this when his Iraqi War is the main reason why Afghanistan hasent been properly pacified yet.

[germanos]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


So why are the US and Canada and UK and NL and Denmark so pissed at Germany and France and Spain?

I hear very little news here (NL) about anybody being pissed at Germany, France or others.

There is great concern though about the situation our government has put our troops in: it was supposed to be save there, and we would be building schools and hospitals. But the government has been forced to send in much more combat troops in as previously envisaged, and parliament is not very happy about it.

And while the situation in Afghanistan might now be better then in Soviet times, it's deteriorating fast. Hell, in the last couple of month more 'Taliban' have been killed then there were supposed to excist in total. In Afghanstan things are going down, not up. And it's a fair question whether sending in more troops is going to turn the tide.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
I dont think anyones complaining about the eastern europeans (in fact Poland has offered 1000 troops for southern Afghanistan) - its France, Germany, Spain, that are at issue.

I think he's just ignoring the fact noone has even mentioned Eastern Europe in this thread except him. I don't know why he's harping on something no one brought up though.

[Asher]

It just strikes me as insolent to state something like this when his Iraqi War is the main reason why Afghanistan hasent been properly pacified yet.

That is an incredibly lame argument. These countries simply aren't pulling their weight, period. The US military has put more than their fair share of involvement with NATO missions in the past, these countries we mention are CONSISTENTLY doing jack-****.

They have more problems than domestic politics, their problem is their insufferable pussies. They're arrogant and passive. They don't understand history where similar behaviour lead to World War II.

This is our problem. Countries doing nothing should be booted out of NATO, and pronto. If they're not going to pull their weight, they deserve no protection.

[laurentius]

Originally posted by Geronimo


well said. Why didn't you just say this in the first place?

Because I thought there was a consensus about this issue and that we didnt need to go through it again.

[laurentius]

Originally posted by Asher

That is an incredibly lame argument. These countries simply aren't pulling their weight, period. The US military has put more than their fair share of involvement with NATO missions in the past, these countries we mention are CONSISTENTLY doing jack-****.

They have more problems than domestic politics, their problem is their insufferable pussies. They're arrogant and passive. They don't understand history where similar behaviour lead to World War II.

This is our problem. Countries doing nothing should be booted out of NATO, and pronto. If they're not going to pull their weight, they deserve no protection.

*****THE FOLLOWING IS ABOUT NATO IN GENERAL, NOT ABOUT AFGHANISTAN******

Personally I hope NATO does collapse. Maybe these coutries are much more willing to invest in the future of common EU defense than some Cold War relic.

It seems like there is a misunderstanding about the nature of NATO between the Europeans and North Americans. We dont want to be part of a US military reserve. It makes much more sense to actually be part of a real defense alliance.

Empire America is just pissing too many people off with its foreign policy. Its allies have no say to it but they have to pay the price for it. In EU you get a vote. So maybe, maybe FranGerSpain are slowly fading away from NATO.

[DinoDoc]

Why did they vote to invoke Article 5 if "FranGerSpain" didn't want to do anything of use in the theater of opperations?

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by laurentius


*****THE FOLLOWING IS ABOUT NATO IN GENERAL, NOT ABOUT AFGHANISTAN******

Personally I hope NATO does collapse. Maybe these coutries are much more willing to invest in the future of common EU defense than some Cold War relic.

It seems like there is a misunderstanding about the nature of NATO between the Europeans and North Americans. We dont want to be part of a US military reserve. It makes much more sense to actually be part of a real defense alliance.

Empire America is just pissing too many people off with its foreign policy. Its allies have no say to it but they have to pay the price for it. In EU you get a vote. So maybe, maybe FranGerSpain are slowly fading away from NATO.

They get a vote in NATO too.

[laurentius]

Are you sure they are not doing anything of use?

[Wezil]

Finally. Something to respond to. (Your posts were noted LOtM).

Originally posted by germanos


I hear very little news here (NL) about anybody being pissed at Germany, France or others.

We are.

There is great concern though about the situation our government has put our troops in: it was supposed to be save there, and we would be building schools and hospitals. But the government has been forced to send in much more combat troops in as previously envisaged, and parliament is not very happy about it.

The same concerns are being expressed in this country. 'Rebuilding' became 'warmaking' and many are not happy. The problem is the burden of the 'heavy lifting'. When NATA members send troops on the caveat they not be deployed in the more dangerous south of Afghanistan, Canadians want to know why our troops should be in the south.

And while the situation in Afghanistan might now be better then in Soviet times, it's deteriorating fast. Hell, in the last couple of month more 'Taliban' have been killed then there were supposed to excist in total. In Afghanstan things are going down, not up. And it's a fair question whether sending in more troops is going to turn the tide.

I agree completely. I don't support the mission as I think it is doomed to fail. Have you noticed how we only kill 'Taliban' not 'Afghanis'? Some day we will realize they are one and the same.

[Asher]

Originally posted by laurentius
It seems like there is a misunderstanding about the nature of NATO between the Europeans and North Americans. We dont want to be part of a US military reserve. It makes much more sense to actually be part of a real defense alliance.

I don't know why you need to be told this many times. America does not dictate where NATO goes or what it does. Hell, I don't think there's ever been an American head to NATO in its history.

[laurentius]

Originally posted by Geronimo


They get a vote in NATO too.

The point was that theres no common foreign policy in NATO.

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by laurentius



The point was that theres no common foreign policy in NATO.

good god!

There sure *as HELL* is no common foreign policy in the EU! You held up the possibility of an EU based alliance as an alternative to NATO! The EU??

Originally posted by laurentius

Personally I hope NATO does collapse. Maybe these coutries are much more willing to invest in the future of common EU defense than some Cold War relic.

It seems like there is a misunderstanding about the nature of NATO between the Europeans and North Americans. We dont want to be part of a US military reserve. It makes much more sense to actually be part of a real defense alliance.

Empire America is just pissing too many people off with its foreign policy. Its allies have no say to it but they have to pay the price for it. In EU you get a vote. So maybe, maybe FranGerSpain are slowly fading away from NATO.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by laurentius
Are you sure they are not doing anything of use?

Quite sure.