"The threshold of an historic crossroads"

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Ninot


USA! USA!

Hell, have you seen a recent picture of that chick? 80 pounds and the resurgance of her white trash DNA has not been pretty.

(this picture is after she went on a major diet with personal trainers working her ass daily. Supposedly a great deal of plastic surgury was also involved in removing the love handles and double chin.)

[Ninot]

No love for Ted Striker tonight?

[GePap]

Originally posted by lord of the mark

So its a perfect storm. The speech lets Olmert tell Israelis what his new course is. They can buy it or not, but they needed to know. It reaches out a hand to Abbas - maybe the Pal street wont hear it clearly, but the Pal elite will. More importantly, the Saudis and Gulfies will hear it. The Euros, whos support for the Hamas boycott was important, but which is always unsteady, needed to be reassured that the boycott is leading to peace, or at least that Israel is doing what it can. The Iranians and Syrians needed to hear that they cannot count on the Pal issue to gain them support in the region, or to prevent a grand alliance against them. And the US needed to hear that Israel was taking steps in support of the US diplomatic and military initiatives in the region.

As Arrian pointed out, to tell the Palestinians that they must renounce their right of return is simply a non-starter.

And Israel does not seem to accept the idea of the Saudi proposal that Israel must surrender all lands taken in 1967. That would include handing over the Golan to Syria and givng up all the settlements and East Jerusalem, no?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by GePap


As Arrian pointed out, to tell the Palestinians that they must renounce their right of return is simply a non-starter.

And Israel does not seem to accept the idea of the Saudi proposal that Israel must surrender all lands taken in 1967. That would include handing over the Golan to Syria and givng up all the settlements and East Jerusalem, no?

He did not say they have to renounce the ROR as a condition for starting talks. It will be part of the Pal initial negotiating position. Since, as everyone, including Abbas, knows, the Israeli dovish position for decades has been two states, a Pal state and a Jewish state, its pretty clear that no unlimited right of return by Pals to Israel will be part of the final settlement. More likely there will be a token return, and compensation for lost property, which will be positioned as Israeli concessions in return for concessions on other things. No ROR at all, zero, nada, is only the Israeli starting position.

Similarly, Israel seems to accept that the Saudi proposal is the Pal position going in. The starting position. Which will have to be balanced against Israeli needs. And everyone pretty much knows that the final solution will involve Israel keeping parts of the West Bank, but compensating the Pals with territory from west of the Green line. And even Jerusalem was pretty much solved in the Camp David negotiations - Pals will get east of the old city, Israel west, the old city to be divided, under some kind of joint police force, and some kind of shared sovereignty. The sticking point is that Israel will insist on shared sov over the temple mount as well, while the Pals have so far refused. Anyway, all these are details for negotiators. It may be, if the negotiations fail, there will be debate about who offered what, and why the talks failed, as occured in 2000. But its premature to judge them by these opening gambits.

Whats clear is that Olmert has confirmed his break with Likud ideology, and his own past. Theres nothing in the speech that doesnt jive with the positions of the Israeli Labour Party. That per se doesnt make it ideal to all Pals, or all outsides, but its a big change in Israel. One whos significance seems to be recognized by Abbas and Erekat, if not by you. (of course Abbas and Erekat, if some are to be believed, were shocked at Arafats rejection of the Barak offer, while some folks here were not)

[Blaupanzer]

A great number of people have provided some sort of Peace Plan/negotiating position over the last 50+ years. None of them have come to fruition. Why is this one different? Seriously?