Afghan Women Burning Themselves Alive

[Arrian]

No, I figured that was far too ambitious a mission. Something a little less progressive... centering around trying to stop the worst excesses/abuses.

Step one: stop the beatings - or rather reduce them dramatically and turn spousal abuse into something that is recognized by society as beyond the pale of acceptable behavior. The caveat is there b/c even in our "enlightened" society we haven't stopped the beatings (though progress has been made, I think).

This is no small thing, and I wonder how much support there would be for the type of laws (and education) required to bring that about.

Working on reducing forced marriages and otherwise treating women as chattel would be step 2.

-Arrian

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Arrian
No, I figured that was far too ambitious a mission. Something a little less progressive... centering around trying to stop the worst excesses/abuses.

Step one: stop the beatings - or rather reduce them dramatically and turn spousal abuse into something that is recognized by society as beyond the pale of acceptable behavior. The caveat is there b/c even in our "enlightened" society we haven't stopped the beatings (though progress has been made, I think).

This is no small thing, and I wonder how much support there would be for the type of laws (and education) required to bring that about.

Working on reducing forced marriages and otherwise treating women as chattel would be step 2.

-Arrian

step one. Restore order generally. Step two. Increase the integration with the world economy, raise education levels. Step three, let women vote.

Womens suffrage alone wont lead to change, but combined with raising levels of education it should help. Note as to forced marriage - already according to the article 20 to 40% of Afghan women are NOT in forced marriages. And note, the West didnt take domestic violence as seriously as all that, across all social classes, till pretty recently.

[Arrian]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


step one. Restore order generally. Step two. Increase the integration with the world economy, raise education levels. Step three, let women vote.

Womens suffrage alone wont lead to change, but combined with raising levels of education it should help. Note as to forced marriage - already according to the article 20 to 40% of Afghan women are NOT in forced marriages. And note, the West didnt take domestic violence as seriously as all that, across all social classes, till pretty recently.

My "steps" were regarding the "western liberalizing agenda" I mentioned. I was presuming order. That's so obviously the first step I didn't think it needed to be mentioned.

As for economic integration... it sounds good, but how? I've wondered about that for some time. From what I understand, the major cash-crop is one that we frown on (poppies). What else is there to work with? Hopefully something, because it would appear that cracking down on poppy farming is rather unpopular.

-Arrian

[Dis]

There is only one solution. One that is the reason they are fighting against us. Eradication of their culture and westernization of their society.

I don't give a **** about the PC all cultures are important etc. **** that. Some cultures aren't worth a ****, and need to be eradicated. And the arab culture is one of them.

My new friend at work was in an arranged marriage in Saudi Arabia. The things she described to me were horrible. Lucky for her she was born in the U.S. and spent her first 8 years here. She knew that wasn't how women were supposed to be treated. But it took her many years to find a way out (her mother stole her passport and said she wasn't working hard enough at their marriage).

It angers me that a sweet (I would say and innocent- but 5 years in Vegas has changed a lot of that ) girl like that is essentually locked up in that society. At least here she can hug me even though she's married. If she did that there, she would be stoned to death probably. How is that even remotely acceptable?

I simply refuse to accept all cultures. I don't care what the PC types tell me. Some are just wrong, and need to go away. By eradication I don't mean killing everyone. As in my example above, there are too many good people over there trapped by their society.

Though maybe they are right not letting women to drive. . My friend failed her written drivers test. That might be one thing the arabs do right. Only kidding. I'm sure she'll pass if she studies for it. Kind of sad she's only now learning how to drive. Stupid Saudia Arabia.

[Wernazuma III]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Who the **** lights herself on fire simply to commit suicide?

Aren't there enough guns in Afghanistan that she could have simply found one of those and pulled the trigger?

Setting yourself on fire can have 2 reasons.
1. It might go for a household accident and not suicide. Even though God should know anyway, in a society where suicide is so extremely taboo, this may be one explanation.
2. If you do it in public, you make a much stronger argument that your life was so utterly unbearable and ****ed up that not even this can scare you anymore. It's a demonstration.

[Gatekeeper]

Arrian, LotM:

From your posts, I get the impression that if the U.S. and its allies are serious about Afghanistan, it's going to have to be a generational effort on our part. We get the basics down in the next few years — stability, economic improvement, getting women mainstreamed (i.e. voting) — and then, afterward, begin the longer and more arduous (but, hopefully, less weapon-dependent) phase of integrating democratic ideals not only into the nation's elite, but to the masses as well.

Heh. I guess Bush was right in one aspect: It's going to be a 30- to 40-year effort if we're serious about getting at the roots of terrorism. And even then, there'll still be the occasional nutcase who does nasty things (i.e. Timothy McVeigh) on a "loner" basis.

Gatekeeper

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Arrian


My "steps" were regarding the "western liberalizing agenda" I mentioned. I was presuming order. That's so obviously the first step I didn't think it needed to be mentioned.

As for economic integration... it sounds good, but how? I've wondered about that for some time. From what I understand, the major cash-crop is one that we frown on (poppies). What else is there to work with? Hopefully something, because it would appear that cracking down on poppy farming is rather unpopular.

-Arrian

Farming a variety of crops, nat gas, and eventually light industry. all experience the last 30 years is that when youve got order, a basic legal structure, low wages, and halfway decent infrastructure, growth happens. I cant see it not happening there. It was STARTING to happen there in the 1960s under the old monarchy. Its been f**ked up since because of the political situation.

I guess my point is that while order is hard, once order, basic political and economic things are in place, we DONT have to micromanage their culture - its pretty much set to go. The counter examples to that, like KSA and Paki, have their own cultural dynamics that feed a neg cycle. Now I know someone could make a case for intrinsic cultural problems to Afghanistan, but I just have more confidence in them than that, based on (admittedly distant) observations the last 5 years. The real craziness is generally from the Pashtuns, who, however, have dominated the society for the last 250 years. Whats yet to be seen is what kind of society emerges in an Afghanistan that is at peace AND is no longer Pashtun dominated.

[Arrian]

There is a little bit of chicken & the egg here... need to establish order, but order is easier to establish if people have work. The economy is in the ****ter b/c there is no order... and around we go.

Tough situation, no doubt.

-Arrian

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Arrian
There is a little bit of chicken & the egg here... need to establish order, but order is easier to establish if people have work. The economy is in the ****ter b/c there is no order... and around we go.

Tough situation, no doubt.

-Arrian

Yeah, well theres the inkblot strategy - you establish order AND you rebuild the economy in some places, then expand outward.

Im not close to convinced Afghanistan is hopeless - most of the attacks are in the Pashtun south, are mainly resulting in dead taliban, and are largely a result of A. Paki sanctuary and B. Certain specific and remediable mistakes by the Kharzai govt. Sure the economy has a long way to go even in the north, cause it started from a poor base, and theres never been enough support (and that applies to everyone, not just the US)

I guess my point was that while the cultural stuff looks pretty bad now, its the kind of thing that will take care of itself, pretty much, AFTER the other things are in order, however long that takes.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Wernazuma III
2. If you do it in public, you make a much stronger argument that your life was so utterly unbearable and ****ed up that not even this can scare you anymore. It's a demonstration.

simply to commit suicide?

[Wernazuma III]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse

simply to commit suicide?

What are you trying to tell me with that quote? With my reply I insinuated that if you do burn yourself it is not "simply to commit suicide". It's always more than that.