Dutch government says it plans to ban burqa

[Pekka]

But it's very clear when it comes to the what ifs.. if a woman does not wear the thing because she doesn't want to, and she's FORCED as in there will be violence otherwise, then that's oppression that goes too far in western socities. Well at least in most of them.

But it's easy in this case, because violence like that is _illegal_.

[SlowwHand]

In the USA, you can't just ban religious things.
Not thought, attire, whatever.

If Heresson wants to worship the frog king, he has the right here.

I could worship belly button lint and wear a coat of it if I wanted to.

[Lonestar]

Banninate the Burqa and other face-covering clothing from public spaces. I'm amazed, yes, amazed that this can even be up for discussion. If someone walks into a 7-11 with a ski mask on the right thing to do is call the cops and report a suspicious situation. Why should we give special dispensation to someone because of their "religious" beliefs?

This is like that lady in Florida who refused to remove her mask Abaya for her driver's license. Somehow she thought that the public good was worth less than a piece of cloth to prevent the lust-rays from infecting men.

[Pekka]

I think this is the result of the policy of some European countries. That policy is, we do not want to appear racist, so we will let most applicants in. We even had a rule, I don't know if we still do, that all applicants from few countries such as Iraq MUST be let in. That is, we can't even turn them away. Now I don't have a problem with immigrants, are you persecuted, of course we must help if we can, and if someone is at your door and they will be saved if you let them in, of course you must do that, it's almost your duty. Some day you might be at that door yourself. Makes you think, they only have to let me in, but if they say no, I will have to run and hide and maybe I'll get killed. That's just not what we shoudl be about.

But we also shouldn't be about blind policies. You let all people in, you will have problems soon. It is obvious that you will let lots of HC criminals in, organized crime, hey who gets to the front of all those lines anyway, the oppressed and poor? Hell no, it's the ones who have friends in that system.. criminals and rich.

Now, we need a screening process. If you don't pass, you have to move on.

But we don't really do that well, we don't want to appear racist. Someone pulls htat card and the gates are open for all to run in for a while.

Now you have a situation in France and other countries, where large muslim population is being migrated, or rather not migrated. Of course they have to live in the poor neighbourhoods becuase they don't have money or jobs and if they live off from the welfare, there's no alternative, period.

That creates a set of whole new problems, and they are most likely unavoidable.

Now you have problems, and now you want to ban burqas? What I mean is, our policies and fear forces us to a situation where people consider these kinds of things, I think this is a bigger and stronger measure than just saying no, we have to control the border so that we can consume the people we have in, get in line, we need to obey the fire department standards.

We should have reasonable policy on who gets in and this policy would mean everyone in real danger first, then others. They need to be migrated well also and have the opportunities we have. Otherwise they'll be bitter, not talking our languages and their sons will start causing problems at latest, because they have been alienated from the society, hanging out with rest of the boys who are like that. That's crying for trouble. And then you'd suggest things like this, I don't agree with banning burqas.

Because we're not going to ban other religious items, so this isn't cool. And if we were to ban all religious items, well.. what other items we must then ban? I don't think we should ban anything.

[Pekka]

Hey wait a minute. Is burqa the one where your face is covered or the one that has your face open?

The one with face covered, well that IS a security problem. The one with face open, no problem.

If we are talkinga bout the face covered thing, I might revise my opinion to.. banning the face part of it in certain zones, like shops, 'federal buildings' etc.

[Lonestar]

Burqa is this:


Hence "Security issue"

[Pekka]

Oh.. OK for some reaosn I was thinking the.. with the face open.. and wondering why that should be banned...

Well well that dress is different. I don't think we should ban this right at bat but I think there could be zones established where you can't wear this. In places of businessa and government buildings etc for starters.

[Datajack Franit]

Actually the problem is people refusing to acknowledge that they are giving this minority the tools to segregate the (not for long) majority within the next 50 years

[GePap]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Then they should never have been allowed to enter the country. If you want to build a new life in a new country then they simply must be able to speak the language before they enter. The US has done that for around 100 years and I can't see how it has harmed anything and I can see many ways how it has improved things.

What re you talking about? There is no need to learn English to migrate to this country, or gain permanent residency. You need it for citizenship, but not to move here.

They should also be forced to show they know something of the native culture, its values, and its history. If they want to make this thier new home then it is reasonable to expect them to know something about it if only so they will fit in better and understand what is going on around them.

Again, that is only asked for if you want citizenship, not legal residency.

As for people having to "fit in", I fail to see how that squares with liberal notions of freedom of association and so forth. People are free to segregate themselves in the private sphere.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Lonestar
Banninate the Burqa and other face-covering clothing from public spaces. I'm amazed, yes, amazed that this can even be up for discussion. If someone walks into a 7-11 with a ski mask on the right thing to do is call the cops and report a suspicious situation. Why should we give special dispensation to someone because of their "religious" beliefs?

Because exceptions are made for religious purposes all the time for almost every single law and regulation on the books. Churches don't pay taxes, don;t have to follow various environmental, zoning, and labor laws, so forth and so on.

This is like that lady in Florida who refused to remove her mask Abaya for her driver's license. Somehow she thought that the public good was worth less than a piece of cloth to prevent the lust-rays from infecting men.

The problem there is not the religious beliefe in particular, but religious belief in general. After all, what are the laws of man compared to the dictates of God?

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by DAVOUT
Would you be kind enough to explain that to the immigrants who are ceaselesly entering this country with or without authorisation.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Nothing more annoying than a racist liberal. At least the old school racists didn't bother cloaking their disdain for people different than them in anything other than a white sheet.

Indeed... it is disdain for a group cloaked in the I'm doing what is best for them justification. I prefer when I can the racism is actually acknowledged instead of pussyfoot around (not like we don't know... it's even worse done than aneeshm trying to hide is Hindu nationalism).

Let's just put it this way, If I was at a Polymeet with Oerdin it'd be a pretty chilly atmosphere (hey, you wouldn't expect a black guy to be all that happy around closet racists would you?).

[TCO]

Oerdin is fine. We had fish tacos.

[atawa]

Its a good start, next step would be outlawing the koran.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Pekka
Or what about some women dressing sexy and losing weight and getting depressed, because the society puts a pressure on them, so should we an fashion magazines, events etc too? They are oppressive too in many ways.

Spain passed a very interesting law resently. Before each shoot the models must weight in and have a doctor check their BMI. If their weight shows that they are 5% below the healthy level then the Spanish government forbids their pictures from being shown in fashion magazines. I can see where the people who claim this is censorship are coming from but the Spanish government is claiming that due to the increase in anarexia and bulimia this is a public health issue and they are forced to take this action.