Iraq is a relative paradise compared to...

[kittenOFchaos]

Originally posted by kittenOFchaos
Any such action against Zimbabwe requires tacit South African support which ain't happening and would be see by all Africans as blatant Neo-Colonialism.

As for the notion of assassinating Mugabe, it won't remove the party apparatus that props him up...too many people of his "tribe/party" are doing well at the expense of those not part of his "tribe/party". Someone would mobe into his place and better the devil you know.

Africans have to find their own way out, we can't in all honesty do it for them as why would we want our soldiers killed and the blood of many on our hands?

America this, America that Mobius, so much easier to ask others to go an do what is in essence thankless and bloody work without a particularly good track record of success.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Re: Re: Re: Iraq is a relative paradise compared to...

Originally posted by MOBIUS

blah blah blah

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by MOBIUS
Reason Somalia is still the mess it is, is because America got too arrogant about its military power and then bugged out the moment it got a bloody nose from a bunch of thugs with guns...

*ahem*

There are other countries out there besides the US. Why don't the rest of you fix something for once instead of sitting on the sidelines like always complaining about the US whenever we do or don't do something.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by OzzyKP


*ahem*

There are other countries out there besides the US. Why don't the rest of you fix something for once instead of sitting on the sidelines like always complaining about the US whenever we do or don't do something.

/me points to the French intervention in Ivory Coast


/me also points to the plentiful theatres where European troops are deployed: Kosovo, Afghanistan, Lebanon, Congo etc.

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by kittenOFchaos
Any such action against Zimbabwe requires tacit South African support which ain't happening and would be see by all Africans as blatant Neo-Colonialism.

Thabo is the number one sticking point, I reckon he would happily behave like Mugabe if he had half the chance...

Still, if there were sufficient political will perhaps even he could be persuaded that the removal of Mugabe would be a good idea - especially in light of the report at the beginning of this thread!

As for the notion of assassinating Mugabe, it won't remove the party apparatus that props up...too many people of his "tribe/party" are doing well at the expense of those not part of his "tribe/party". Someone would mobe into his place and better the devil you know.

ASSUMPTION #1 Who the hell said anything about assassinating him!!?!?!?!?!?!?!

THAT would be a BAD IDEA!!!

Africans have to find their own way out, we can't in all honesty do it for them as why would we want our soldiers killed and the blood of many on our hands?

I agree. Iraqis should learn to look after themselves too. Oh ****, we invaded them didn't we? Let's leave now - they can sort it out themselves! (I hope you didn't support the invasion at the beginning )

America this, America that Mobius, so much easier to ask others to go an do what is in essence thankless and bloody work without a particularly good track record of success.

ASSUMPTION #2 Where did I specifically say it should be America!?!?!?!?!?!? Where? In fact I have been hinting that perhaps it should be a commonwealth thing for boots on the ground, not the US. Sure the US could supply logistical and political support, but considering how bad they are at this sort of thing - they would be the last I'd bring into Zim!

Kindly read what people actually post instead of jumping to wild conclusions...

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by MOBIUS
File it under not being bothered to give a ****...

Go **** yourself.

Nobody giving a **** is why UNOSOM I and UNITAF were organized, right? How about UNSCRs 733, 746, 751, 767, 775 and 794? Up to 37,000 troops on the ground, over three years (including the time of UNOSOM II), nearly two billion in UN costs, not counting unilateral donations of aid or US military expenditures. Nobody gave a ****, right?

How about the Somali clans not being arsed to have any form of functioning government because they were too busy killing each other and chewing khat?

Neither the UN nor any other organization entered Somalia with a mandate to force a national government down their collective throats, assuming it could even have been done, which it couldn't.

You have a famine and drought affecting half the population. So what happens? Those ****ing khat-stoned people hijacking food supplies and vehicles to sell for weapons and to feed and transport their own fighters, while one faction attacks unarmed ships carrying relief supplies to induce UNOSOM to take control of the port, and another faction (Motherfarah Aidid) mortars the airport and the Paki UN contingent because he doesn't want UNOSOM controlling "his" airport.

Reason Somalia is still the mess it is, is because America got too arrogant about its military power and then bugged out the moment it got a bloody nose from a bunch of thugs with guns...

Smart move that!

No, you ignorant asswipe. The US didn't "bug out" because of TF Ranger. The US had deployed more than 20,000 Marines and about 25,000 troops total during UNITAF, which was under US command. What a coincidence, the only time anything functioned in Somalia was when it was run by the US. UNITAF's mandate was to provide a security environment in the southern half of ****holia for the delivery of huminatarian aid without it being stolen and UN civilian workers being threatened or killed.

The UN decided, "Gee, UNITAF is working, but it's expensive and it's just a band aid, since ****holia is still completely disfunctional and filled with stoned skinnies who still want to shoot each other and everyone else, but they're scared of all those mean ol' jarheads, so let's send the real troops out and try our hands at a little 'nation building.' That always works, because we know all the skinnies respect international law so much." So there you have UNSCR 814, establishing UNOSOM II under UN control. The vast majority of US forces left as provided for under the new UN mandate, about five months before TF Ranger's fight, and the US turned over operational control to the UN.

Go figure, virtually the moment that happens, Mother Farah Aidid and his Habr Gidr *******s start things up again, because, other than his grand sense of entitlement to the office of chief skinny popper, Aidid has a hard on for Dumbass Dumbass Golly, who in his pre-UN incarnation was good buddies with Mohammad Siad Barre. For some reason, having sent Siad Barre packing, Aidid thought that Dumbass Dumbass Golly and the UN had it in for him. Maybe it was because of using famine and drought as a weapon to starve people from clans not allied with the Habr Gidr? Nope, can't be that, they're just out to get me.

After a little warmup, Aidid's boys decide the way to introduce the new order is to ambush and kill some two dozen Pakistani troops under the UN mission.

By the time TF Ranger went after Mother Farah, there were already over 150 dead associated with the UNOSOM mission, including civilian aid workers, and not including western journalists or humanitarian workers associated with other NGOs not under UN control (they'd never been around much and got the hell out of Dodge early).

Let's see... over 15 months by that point, billions down the hole (US/UN/other), no improvement in the domestic political situation, no government, warlord rule/anarchy, still impossible to effectively deliver food aid or anything else, and the place has nothing but sand, sharks, and khat-stoned skinnies armed with everything they can carry. Sounds like a nice place to work.

Deciding someplace is beyond help and not worth the bother isn't quite the same as "bugging out" but you wouldn't know - you'd whine and run over a hangnail or not being able to get your favorite beer on demand. What exactly would have been the point in sticking around?

As was finally tipping the balance by encouraging the warlords to self-destruct against the Islamists - now you have Afghanistan #2 with much of the country under similar conditions to when the Taliban were in power.

Are you really this obtuse, or is this just a troll? You can't prevent the ****ing clans from self-destructing against each other. They've been at it for 15 years running. No "encouragement" needed. The leaders are so corrupt that they can't motivate anyone to fight for them, unless it's stealing from the unarmed or random killings. The Islamists are organized, dedicated, disciplined, methodical and purpose driven. The only way to stop them would be to take over the fight from the clans, then what do you do? Give ****holia back to the same bastards who've raped and murdered all along, so they can fight among themselves yet again for control over everyone else they victimize?

Al Qaeda training camps anyone?

Round of applause!

Then bomb them flat. Its not like there are air defenses, and the whole country is nicely in reach of carrier based aviation.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by MOBIUS
Thabo is the number one sticking point, I reckon he would happily behave like Mugabe if he had half the chance...

Reality is the no. 1 sticking point, but don't let that get in the way of one of your whinefests - it's never slowed you down before.

[kittenOFchaos]

Originally posted by MOBIUS
ASSUMPTION #2 Where did I specifically say it should be America!?!?!?!?!?!?

You forgot to say it should be America?

Man, what a forgetful troll