Iraq is a relative paradise compared to...

[Sandman]

I'm tempted to agree with Mobius that an intervention in Zimbabwe would not be the most difficult thing in the world.

The reason: no Islam. Who is going to fight to the death for Mugabe? No-one.

[Adam Smith]

Search Function Works Fine For Me

Originally posted by MOBIUS
The infrastructure is still there, it's mainly stuff like power stations running on minimum etc - China is helping prop up a @#$%^&* dictator...

Corrected.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=136729&highlight=Mugabe

http://www.jamestown.org/publications_details.php?volume_id=408&issue_id=3390&article_id=2369974

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0330/p01s01-woaf.html

And as Zimbabwe becomes more isolated from the West, China has sent crates of T-shirts for ruling-party supporters who will vote in Thursday's parliamentary elections.

In addition, China or its businesses have reportedly:

• provided a radio-jamming device for a military base outside the capital, preventing independent stations from balancing state-controlled media during the election campaign;

• begun to deliver 12 fighter jets and 100 trucks to Zimbabwe's Army amid a Western arms embargo; and

• designed President Robert Mugabe's new 25-bedroom mansion, complete with helipad. The cobalt-blue tiles for its swooping roof, which echoes Beijing's Forbidden City, were a Chinese gift.

Nice touch with the t-shirts and jamming equipment. And there is, of course, the Security Council veto in the background.

[Elok]

Not many people are fighting to the death for Saddam either, are they? It's all Sunni vs. Shiite. As for Zimbabwe, I know basically nothing of it, but here are some questions:

-How trustworthy are Botswana, Zambia, Mozambique, and South Africa? I.e., what would they try to shape Zimbabwe into after we left?

-How much of their identity is genuine, and how much tribal identity lingers? Islamic-sect politics sounds like a wet dream compared to African tribal grudge politics. Wikipedia says they're 80% Shona, 8-10% Ndebele, and roughly 10% are miscellaneous other races and ethnic groups.

-How "Christian" are they? Again according to Wiki, perhaps half attend Christian churches regularly. The rest is various indigenous belief systems and syncretisms thereof, about which we know squat but which apparently involve listening to the voices of ancestors or something. And listening to prophets who live in caves.

-How many interpreters do we have who speak Shona? English is the official language, but not many speak it. I imagine we don't have as many Shona speakers as we do Arabic speakers.

-Geography. Wikipedia gives no straight answer on terrain, but it seems to be about 20% forest, 30% developed, and the rest is...other...stuff.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Re: Iraq is a relative paradise compared to...

Originally posted by MOBIUS
...Zimbabwe...



Just how is it, that in the 21st century, we can allow one person systematically self-destruct his own nation...?

Surely if ever there was a viable reason for regime change it is Zimbabwe?

How difficult would it be to militarily topple Mugabe?

I'm guessing it would be virtually effortless to carry out.

And for once, people would be cheering in the streets and meaning it!

Yes, all of bloody Africa would cheer white Europeans going in to do a little "regime change." Good one. You've just earned yourself the Paul Wolfowitz Dumbass Award.

It is insanity that no one in the World seems to give a flying **** about what is happening in Zim, but hey it is Africa after all - let's just file it with Darfur and Somalia...

It's not insanity. It's what Africans are choosing to do to other Africans, and no amount of feasible foreign intervention in the world is going to change it.

[SlowwHand]

Look at Ivory Coast, as another example of Africans doing unto Africans.

[Chemical Ollie]

Re-establish the British colony Rhodesia!

[Pekka]

I think it's also unreasonable to expect US going in every single conflict and use their power to change the situation. We know US is sometimes doing it a lot, but there's no way you can stretch yourself in all parts of the world simultaniously.

The EU has enough firepower to step in in African countries these day, I don't see how it isn't the fault of EU. Besides, EU should carry more responsibility over the region, since it ****ed Africa for so long.

But if you send EU troops there to run and shoot Africans, because of a 'regime change', what you have is another example where it can be viewed as colonialist action..

[Chemical Ollie]

Sweden is very likely to send troops to Sudan, according to TV 4 news 15 minutes ago.

(And our foreign minister is a board member of Lundin Oil, that own a lot of oil wells in Sudan)

[Pekka]

Yes but under UN flag.. ?

[Chemical Ollie]

I suppose so

[Whoha]

We already fought this battle Mobius, and Rhodesia lost.

[MOBIUS]

Re: Search Function Works Fine For Me

Originally posted by Adam Smith
Corrected.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=136729&highlight=Mugabe

http://www.jamestown.org/publications_details.php?volume_id=408&issue_id=3390&article_id=2369974

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0330/p01s01-woaf.html

Nice touch with the t-shirts and jamming equipment. And there is, of course, the Security Council veto in the background.

Indeed, I was going off Mugabe signs aid deal with China, but wholeheartedly admit to not following it up...

I have seen mention of some small help lately:

But Mugabe’s government believes the Chinese are beginning to come through with help and have referred to a $200-million agro-facility deal secured by the Reserve Bank of Zimbabwe recently. This was Zimbabwe’s largest foreign loan in years.

and

t was not immediately clear whether Zimbabwe signed any deals during last weekend's Africa-China summit, which saw China signing $1,9-billion in trade deals. China also promised aid and debt relief to African countries and increased trade with the world’s poorest continent in the coming years. -- ZimOnline

Dated 8th Nov 2006.

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by Elok
Not many people are fighting to the death for Saddam either, are they? It's all Sunni vs. Shiite. As for Zimbabwe, I know basically nothing of it, but here are some questions:

Hence why it would be easy to topple him.

-How trustworthy are Botswana, Zambia, Mozambique, and South Africa? I.e., what would they try to shape Zimbabwe into after we left?

Four of those are Commonwealth countries.

As for Mozambique, I'm sure you could get them on board with aid packages/cancellation of debts etc. It is in all their best interests to have a strong Zimbabwe - I bet Mozambique's transit incomes for Zimbabwean goods (Zim's main rail and port links are through M) have fallen through the floor since Zim's economic meltdown.

-How much of their identity is genuine, and how much tribal identity lingers? Islamic-sect politics sounds like a wet dream compared to African tribal grudge politics. Wikipedia says they're 80% Shona, 8-10% Ndebele, and roughly 10% are miscellaneous other races and ethnic groups.

Not really an issue as far as I can tell, especially considering the breakdown you yourself have posted.

-How "Christian" are they? Again according to Wiki, perhaps half attend Christian churches regularly. The rest is various indigenous belief systems and syncretisms thereof, about which we know squat but which apparently involve listening to the voices of ancestors or something. And listening to prophets who live in caves.

If perhaps half attend Christian churches, then that is a far better figure than even the UK itself...

I highly doubt there would be any issues whatsoever regarding religion.

-How many interpreters do we have who speak Shona? English is the official language, but not many speak it. I imagine we don't have as many Shona speakers as we do Arabic speakers.

I expect practically the entire country to be conversant in English at least to a 2nd language level - this is the country with the best literacy rates in Africa (95%+) - hmm, actually 90.7% (2003) Is this another result of Mugabe's mismanagement of his country?. I can virtually guarantee that all students get taught English at school! Again not a problem. And yes, it does appear from your post that you 'know nothing of Zim'...

[MOBIUS]

Re: Re: Iraq is a relative paradise compared to...

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
Yes, all of bloody Africa would cheer white Europeans going in to do a little "regime change." Good one. You've just earned yourself the Paul Wolfowitz Dumbass Award.

And you've just earned yourself the Michael the Grate award for massive ass-umptions whilst failing to keep up with what is being discussed...

It's not insanity. It's what Africans are choosing to do to other Africans, and no amount of feasible foreign intervention in the world is going to change it.

There is, but again you blind yourself to the obvious - that which has already been discussed in this thread!

Zimbabwe has a literacy rate of 90.7% (2003)

Michael the Grate has a literacy rate of 0.907% (21/11/2006)

[kittenOFchaos]

Any such action against Zimbabwe requires tacit South African support which ain't happening and would be see by all Africans as blatant Neo-Colonialism.

As for the notion of assassinating Mugabe, it won't remove the party apparatus that props up...too many people of his "tribe/party" are doing well at the expense of those not part of his "tribe/party". Someone would mobe into his place and better the devil you know.

Africans have to find their own way out, we can't in all honesty do it for them as why would we want our soldiers killed and the blood of many on our hands?

America this, America that Mobius, so much easier to ask others to go an do what is in essence thankless and bloody work without a particularly good track record of success.