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A clear example of why torture doesn't work.

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  • #16
    Re: Re: A clear example of why torture doesn't work.

    Originally posted by Chemical Ollie
    Why didn't you post threads like this in 2003, when Colin Powel's body language during the infamous speach to the UN made so clear that he was lying, knew it himself and was not comfortable with it?

    If more Americans had seen through the obvious lies, you might even had been saved personally from a long and unnessary trip to a hostile ****hole.
    Back then it was clear he was lying or that the information had been gained through the use of torture.

    As I have publically said multiple times what turned me against the war was actually going to Iraq and taking part in it.
    Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

    Comment

    • #17
      Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
      So am I to understand that you're opposed to Mahmud Abouhalima aka Mahmud the Red being captured and tortured in Egypt whereupon he rolled over and gave up the name of Ramsi Yousef and Khalid Sheikh Mohammad because clearly even considering information obtained by foreign powers utilizing tortue to guide investigations is a bad thing and clearly not reliable.

      Or is it merely coincidence that happened under the Clinton watch hence the information was reliable.
      Who the hell said that? I'm saying that torture is not a reliable way to get information because if you torture a man enough he will tell you what ever you want to hear. The problem is what you want to hear isn't always the truth as in this case.
      Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

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      • #18
        Clearly the information wasn't reliable back then though as it was derived from torture. Why should it be used to track down Yousef and KSM?

        Could it possibly be that there was supporting evidence to support a case against Yousef and KSM just as there appeared to be other eivdence supporting a case for Iraq? (Remember this is from me the guy who at the time said the case was suspect and that if we went in and no WMDs were in evidence there would be hell to pay. Yes Irealize we are talking WMD and ties to AQ).
        "Just puttin on the foil" - Jeff Hanson

        “In a democracy, I realize you don’t need to talk to the top leader to know how the country feels. When I go to a dictatorship, I only have to talk to one person and that’s the dictator, because he speaks for all the people.” - Jimmy Carter

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Oerdin
          This thread is about torture and deciding if it is an effective means to gain reliable information.
          if youre trying to get a confession - definitely not. Which is why the FBI, whose focus is much on judicial cases, is so much against it.
          if youre trying to get short time operation info that can be immediately confirmed (where is mr X? Where is the bomb planted?) Maybe. Certainly not as effective as some TV shows would imply, and some AQ guy could lie to throw you off track even if he knows hes gonna be found out in hours, but maybe.
          if youre trying to get longer term strategic info - (does country x have chemical Y? Is the AQ operation in city Z well organized?) Probably not.

          None of which is well answered by a story that hangs on a thread.
          "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

          Comment

          • #20
            Re: A clear example of why torture doesn't work.

            Wasn't al-Libi's rendition already old news almost a year ago?

            Edit: yep.

            Qaeda-Iraq Link U.S. Cited Is Tied to Coercion Claim (Published 2005)
            http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/09/politics/09intel.html?ex=1291784400&en=13ec2069ef8fa0d6&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland
            New disclosure provides first public evidence that bad intelligence on Iraq may have resulted partly from Bush administration's heavy reliance on third countries to carry out interrogations of Al Qaeda members and others detained as part of American counterterrorism effort; officials say Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi provided specific and elaborate account about ties between Iraq and Al Qaeda only after he was secretly handed over to Egypt by US in January 2002, in process known as rendition; Libi says he fabricated statements while in Egyptian custody to escape harsh treatment; Bush administration used Libi's accounts for prewar claim that ties between Iraq and Al Qaeda included training in explosives and chemical weapons; fact that Libi recanted after American invasion has been public for more than year, but American officials had not previously acknowledged that Libi made false statements in foreign custody, or that Libi contended that his statements had been coerced; Libi was highest-ranking Qaeda leader in American custody; was transferred to Egypt for interrogation because White House had not yet provided detailed authorization for CIA to hold him; agency currently holds between two and three dozen high-ranking terrorist suspects in secret prisons outside US (M)
            Unbelievable!

            Comment

            • #21
              Re: Re: A clear example of why torture doesn't work.

              Originally posted by Darius871
              Wasn't al-Libi's rendition already old news almost a year ago?

              Edit: yep.

              http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/09/po...er=rssuserland
              i went by the OP.
              "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

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              • #22
                I know; I was only responding to the OP.
                Unbelievable!

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                • #23
                  Yes, but the revolation is that supposedly he provided the information which the admistration used to claim that Iraq was helping Al Qaeda. That was previously unknown.
                  Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

                  Comment

                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Oerdin
                    Yes, but the revolation is that supposedly he provided the information which the admistration used to claim that Iraq was helping Al Qaeda. That was previously unknown.

                    No.

                    Qaeda-Iraq Link U.S. Cited Is Tied to Coercion Claim

                    December 9, 2005

                    WASHINGTON, Dec. 8 - The Bush administration based a crucial prewar assertion about ties between Iraq and Al Qaeda on detailed statements made by a prisoner while in Egyptian custody who later said he had fabricated them to escape harsh treatment, according to current and former government officials.
                    ...
                    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/09/po...er=rssuserland
                    Unbelievable!

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