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A clear example of why torture doesn't work.

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  • A clear example of why torture doesn't work.

    It turns out the claims the VP and Colin Powell made that Iraq was supporting Al Qaeda during the run up to the invasion of Iraq was based upon confession gained from prisoners being tortured. I don't like Al Qaeda but if you torture someone enough they will tell you anything you want to hear so torture is not a reliable means of extracting information.

    Confession that formed base of Iraq war was acquired under torture: journalist

    Thu Oct 26, 8:37 PM ET

    LONDON (AFP) - An Al-Qaeda terror suspect captured by the United States, who gave evidence of links between
    Iraq and the terror network, confessed after being tortured, a journalist told the BBC.


    Iban al Shakh al Libby told intelligence agents that he was close to Al-Qaeda leaders Osama bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahiri and "understood an awful lot about the inner workings of Al-Qaeda," former FBI agent Jack Clonan told the broadcaster.

    Libby was tortured in an Egyptian prison, according to Stephen Grey, the author of the newly-released book "Ghost Plane" who investigated the secret US
    Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) prisons that housed terror suspects around the world.

    US
    President George W. Bush confirmed the existence of the network of CIA holding facilities overseas during a September 6 speech defending controversial US interrogation practices.

    Libby was apparently taken to Cairo, Clonan told the broadcaster, after being captured in Afghanistan in the aftermath of the September 11, 2001 attacks in the United States.

    "He (Libby) claims he was tortured in jail and that would be routine in Egyptian prisons," Grey said.

    "What he claimed most significantly was a connection between ... Al-Qaeda and the Iraqi regime of
    Saddam Hussein. This intelligence report made it all the way to the top, and was used by (former US secretary of state) Colin Powell as a key piece of justification ... for invading Iraq," he told the broadcaster.


    Powell claimed in a UN Security Council meeting in February 2003, weeks before a US-led coalition invaded Iraq, that the country under Saddam Hussein had provided weapons training to Al-Qaeda, saying he could "trace the story of a senior terrorist operative", whom Grey alleges is Libby.

    "At the time, the caveats to say this intelligence was extracted under torture were not provided," Grey said.

    Grey said that, after being held in Egypt, Libby was transferred to a secret CIA facility in Bagram, just north of Afghanistan's capital Kabul. The journalist said he had also met other people held in that facility who describe the torture that Libby faced at the CIA facility.

    Since then, "he disappeared", Grey said.

    "Like hundreds of other people arrested after September 11, he's vanished into a sort of netherworld of prisons where astonishingly,
    President Bush now says the prisons have emptied.


    It seems like there are still many pyschological ways to get a person to confess without having to resort to something which is so against common western values.
    Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

  • #2
    I'm not speaking up for physical torture, but pyschological torture isn't a whole lot better or reliable.
    Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
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    • #3
      I find this believeable and unsurprising.

      You had a group of people looking for reasons to launch a war they had already decided they wanted to wage. When presented with intel that supported that war, they were of course likely to accept it and use it, with less scrutiny than intel that did not support their chosen course of action.

      ****ers.

      -Arrian
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      • #4
        The usual critique is that torture makes prisoners confess what their interrogators want to hear.

        why, prey tell, would Egyptian interrogators want to hear about a connection between Iraq and AQ?

        Didnt Egypt see Saddam as a balance against Iran? didnt they support the invasion only reluctantly?
        "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

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        • #5
          I imagine the US handed the prisoners over saying we can't do this but we know you do and we'd be very greatful if you could get them to tell us about the connection between Saddam and Al Qaeda.
          Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Oerdin
            I imagine the US handed the prisoners over saying we can't do this but we know you do and we'd be very greatful if you could get them to tell us about the connection between Saddam and Al Qaeda.
            if they did that, that would be far bigger news than one more piece of sloppy evidence on WMDs, wouldnt you think?
            "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

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            • #7
              No, likely that sort of stuff happens all the time but it is just a quiet conversation between a few high level people who know better then to leak that information to the media.
              Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

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              • #8
                al libby says he was tortured. that DOES happen in Egypt. Its also what AQ types are primed to claim, in general.

                Al Libby WAS in Egypt. According to one ex-FBI agent, no other confirmation. For how long, we dont know. For weeks of interrogation? A stopover for refueling? Who knows. The ex-fbi agent does not say that al libby was tortured, or even that he was interrogated by the Egyptians. Thats surmised, based on the fact that al Libby MAY have been in Egypt, and DOES claim to be tortured. Even though the diinfo extracted by torture went directly opposite to the interests of the Egyptian govt (I mean would you trust them to do a good job on that issue?)

                I cant say the story isnt true. Just as I cant say that Iraq didnt have SOME yet undiscovered operational relationship with AQ. But id say they both hang by thin threads.
                "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

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                • #9
                  Well this and you get people if you pay money to them, they tell you what you want to hear also.

                  It's a difficult thing but gathering solid intel has always been difficult and task that requires superior . well.. intelligence.

                  People who would say that torturing now would be a good idea will most likely base it on the view that it helps to increase the security - finding out about attacks, associates and stuff like that in advance or even later on. SO they take a security side of this issue and accept the torture as necessary evil.

                  But what doesn't make much sense is that we know for a fact that torturing does nto give good results. So, in fact if we look further, this would not enhance the intel, rather gives us BAD intel, therefore decreasing security.

                  That, plus all the other stuff that comes with torture, but from security point of view alone, it still doesn't make a lot of sense.
                  In da butt.
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                  • #10
                    [insert obligatory generic one-trick-pony remark here]
                    Unbelievable!

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Darius871
                      [insert obligatory generic one-trick-pony remark here]

                      I agree with the OP.

                      Repetitive postings are akin to torture and seemingly have little effect.
                      "Just puttin on the foil" - Jeff Hanson

                      “In a democracy, I realize you don’t need to talk to the top leader to know how the country feels. When I go to a dictatorship, I only have to talk to one person and that’s the dictator, because he speaks for all the people.” - Jimmy Carter

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                      • #12
                        This thread is about torture and deciding if it is an effective means to gain reliable information.
                        Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

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                        • #13
                          Re: A clear example of why torture doesn't work.

                          Originally posted by Oerdin
                          It turns out the claims the VP and Colin Powell made that Iraq was supporting Al Qaeda during the run up to the invasion of Iraq was based upon confession gained from prisoners being tortured. I don't like Al Qaeda but if you torture someone enough they will tell you anything you want to hear so torture is not a reliable means of extracting information.



                          It seems like there are still many pyschological ways to get a person to confess without having to resort to something which is so against common western values.
                          Why didn't you post threads like this in 2003, when Colin Powel's body language during the infamous speach to the UN made so clear that he was lying, knew it himself and was not comfortable with it?

                          If more Americans had seen through the obvious lies, you might even had been saved personally from a long and unnessary trip to a hostile ****hole.
                          So get your Naomi Klein books and move it or I'll seriously bash your faces in! - Supercitizen to stupid students
                          Be kind to the nerdiest guy in school. He will be your boss when you've grown up!

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                          • #14
                            Why didn't you post threads like this in 2003, when Colin Powel's body language during the infamous speach to the UN made so clear that he was lying, knew it himself and was not comfortable with it?


                            He was too busy cheering for the war
                            “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                            - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

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                            • #15
                              So am I to understand that you're opposed to Mahmud Abouhalima aka Mahmud the Red being captured and tortured in Egypt whereupon he rolled over and gave up the name of Ramsi Yousef and Khalid Sheikh Mohammad because clearly even considering information obtained by foreign powers utilizing tortue to guide investigations is a bad thing and clearly not reliable.

                              Or is it merely coincidence that happened under the Clinton watch hence the information was reliable.
                              "Just puttin on the foil" - Jeff Hanson

                              “In a democracy, I realize you don’t need to talk to the top leader to know how the country feels. When I go to a dictatorship, I only have to talk to one person and that’s the dictator, because he speaks for all the people.” - Jimmy Carter

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