U.S. Civil War - Did the South Have the Right to Secede?

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Caligastia
Many other southerners don't like the 'rebel' term.

/me proudly considers himself to be an Ole Miss Rebel.

[MRT144]

Re: Re: Re: U.S. Civil War - Did the South Have the Right to Secede?

Originally posted by Caligastia


Many other southerners don't like the 'rebel' term. Is there any reason to be insulting about it? Other than to give yourself an ego boost, of course.

do you even live in the US? have you ever been to the south?

if you havent I apologize for calling you an idiot, youre simply ignorant.

[SlowwHand]

Bonnie Blue Flag

The first recorded use of the lone star flag dates to 1810. On September 11, 1810 a troop of West Florida dragoons set out for the provincial capitol at Baton Rouge under this flag. They were joined by other republican forces and captured Baton Rouge, imprisoned the Governor and on September 23, 1810 raised their Bonnie Blue flag over the Fort of Baton Rouge. Three days later the president of the West Florida Convention, signed a Declaration of Independence and the flag became the emblem of a new republic. By December 10, the flag of the United States replaced the Bonnie Blue after President Madison issued a proclamation declaring West Florida under the jurisdiction of the Governor of the Louisiana Territory. With this rebellion in mind, this flag was used by the Republic of Texas from 1836 to 1839. On January 9, 1861 the convention of the People of Mississippi adopted an Ordinance of Secession. With this announcement the Bonnie Blue flag was raised over the capitol building in Jackson. Harry McCarthy was so inspired that he wrote a song entitled "The Bonnie Blue Flag" which became the second most popular patriotic song of the Confederacy. The Confederate government did not adopt this flag but the people did and the lone star flags were adopted in some form in five of the southern States that adopted new flags in 1861.

The Bonnie Blue Flag

Harry MaCarthy




We are a band of brothers and native to the soil,
Fighting for the property we gained by honest toil;
And when our rights were threatened, the cry rose near and far,
"Hurrah for the Bonnie Blue Flag that bears a single star!"

Hurrah! Hurrah! For Southern rights hurrah!
Hurrah for the Bonnie Blue Flag that bears a single star.

As long as the Union was faithful to her trust,
Like friends and like brothers both kind were we and just;
But now, when Northern treachery attempts our rights to mar,
We hoist on high the Bonnie Blue Flag that bears a single star.

Hurrah! Hurrah! For Southern rights hurrah!
Hurrah for the Bonnie Blue Flag that bears a single star.

First gallant South Carolina nobly made the stand,
Then came Alabama, who took her by the hand;
Next quickly Mississippi, Georgia and Florida,
All raised on high the Bonnie Blue Flag that bears a single star.

Hurrah! Hurrah! For Southern rights hurrah!
Hurrah for the Bonnie Blue Flag that bears a single star.

Ye men of valor, gather round the banner of the right,
Texas and fair Louisiana join us in the fight;
Davis, our loved president, and Stephens statesman are,
Now rally round the Bonnie Blue Flag that bears a single star.

Hurrah! Hurrah! For Southern rights hurrah!
Hurrah for the Bonnie Blue Flag that bears a single star.

And here's to old Virginia, the Old Dominion State,
Who with the young Confederacy at length has linked her fate;
Impelled by her example, now other states prepare,
To hoist on high the Bonnie Blue Flag that bears a single star.

Hurrah! Hurrah! For Southern rights hurrah!
Hurrah for the Bonnie Blue Flag that bears a single star.

Then cheer, boys, cheer, raise the joyous shout,
For Arkansas and North Carolina now have both gone out;
And let another rousing cheer for Tennessee be given,
The single star of the Bonnie Blue Flag has grown to be eleven.

Hurrah! Hurrah! For Southern rights hurrah!
Hurrah for the Bonnie Blue Flag that bears a single star.

Then here's to our Confederacy, strong are we and brave,
Like patriots of old we'll fight our heritage to save;
And rather than submit to shame, to die we would prefer,
So cheer for the Bonnie Blue Flag that bears a single star.

Hurrah! Hurrah! For Southern rights hurrah!
Hurrah for the Bonnie Blue Flag that bears a single star.

[Caligastia]

Re: Re: Re: Re: U.S. Civil War - Did the South Have the Right to Secede?

Originally posted by MRT144


do you even live in the US? have you ever been to the south?

if you havent I apologize for calling you an idiot, youre simply ignorant.

We can't all be young enough to know it all.

[Bosh]

Maine
Charging down hills while out of bullets and outnumbered to kick rebel ass

[Arrian]

To sum up:

Yeah, they prolly had the right to seceed. It didn't work out too well, though.

Did they have a right to own slaves? I think we all agree the answer to that question is no. I think we all understand that slavery was not a purely Southern institution, either in origin or in practice in the United States, but that by the time of the civil war only the South still had it, and vehemently defended it.

And so we come back to a statement I made in the other thread (the flag thread): I just can't muster much sympathy for the South in this matter, even if they were technically within their rights to seceed.

-Arrian

[SlowwHand]

Nobody wants sympathy. Want to be left alone.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
are you proposing some sort of communism?

It always boils down to this

[Sava]

Yes. The South had the right to secede, AND the North had the right to go down there and give them a BEAT DOWN.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker

The entire thing is mooted by secession.

How so, any more than the perpetual lease on Gitmo?

The government of Cuba does not have the same relationship with the United States as did the sovereign state of South Carolina prior to reconstruction. During reconstruction, yes, South Carolina, like the rest of the Confederacy, was a conquered, occupied state under control of a military power.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Sava
Yes. The South had the right to secede, AND the North had the right to go down there and give them a BEAT DOWN.

Considering the inherent advantages, four years and 100,000 more dead is hardly a beat down.

"We'll play you in a game of footbal, except we're allowed 15 men on the field and unlimited substitutions, while you're allowed only five and no sustitutions. Oh, and to make things sporting, there are no referees, no time limits, we get all the pads and equipment, and the field slopes downhill, with us always starting on the uphill side. Play continues until we 'win,' forever, if necessary."

[Sava]

Actually, considering the numbers of people/troops involved, the tactics of the period, the technology employed, the politics, etc... It's not surprising how things turned out. The end result is all that matters... not body counts.

[SlowwHand]

Spoken like a true moron, Sava.

[Arrian]

The end result was quite a beat down. It was much costlier than a simple analysis of the numbers would have indicated, however, due to the skill of the Southern soldiers and officers (and/or the incompetance of their Northern counterparts - mixture of both, if you ask me) and the inherent advantages held by the defender in that era of warfare.

In short, from a purely military standpoint, the South did quite well with what they had. Everybody knows that. In the end, though, they couldn't stave off the inevitable.

-Arrian

[SlowwHand]

Here Sava, jack your jaws some more, and be an idiot.

At least 618,000 Americans died in the Civil War, and some experts say the toll reached 700,000. The number that is most often quoted is 620,000. At any rate, these casualties exceed the nation's loss in all its other wars, from the Revolution through Vietnam.

The Union armies had from 2,500,000 to 2,750,000 men. Their losses, by the best estimates:
Battle deaths: 110,070
Disease, etc.: 250,152
Total 360,222


The Confederate strength, known less accurately because of missing records, was from 750,000 to 1,250,000. Its estimated losses:
Battle deaths: 94,000
Disease, etc.: 164,000
Total 258,000

Doesn't this loss of life give you a thrill?