U.S. Civil War - Did the South Have the Right to Secede?

[MRT144]

michael oher rocks ole miss!

[SlowwHand]

I don't thnk there's more poverty in the South. I'd have to see statistics to that effect.

I'll offer this reference as rebuttal in advance.

http://www.citymayors.com/features/uscity_poverty.htmlv

[MRT144]

seriously, theres poverty everywhere, its just a ***** in the south because it isnt concentrated into small pockets surrounded by relatively prosperous areas

[Deity Dude]

Northern Slave Traders in league with the English "invented the slave issue" in the United States. For the most part, Southerners didn't take boats to Africa, didn't catch slaves and didn't import slaves into the US. But, like any drug the south bought the goods. And like any drug addict the southern economy became addicted. Nowadays it is politically correct to blame the pusher, not the addict. So why isn't the North ever found culpable for slavery?

By today's terms, the vast majority of northerners were racists and most didn't care about the slavery issue. Couple this with the fact that very few southerners actually owned slaves and once again we see that history is written by the victors. Slavery was no more the issue in the Civil War than the persecution of the Jews was the issue in WWII. They became the issue after the fact.

Lincoln himself admitted that he would allow slavery to continue if it would keep the Union together. Obviously this points out that this wasn't a war about slavery but a war about consolidating and perpetuating his/northern/federal power. This power was to be kept against the will of a vast majority of Americans. These Americans did not want to be ruled by Lincoln, his government or a group of Northern States. The concept that the South had to submit to this, is in total conflict with the American principles of democracy and republic as expressed in the Declaration of Independence and The Constitution.

But lets get back to the slavery issue. "Lincoln freed the slaves", right? Not really. The Emancipation Proclamation was a wartime PR manuever that only freed slaves IN THE CONFEDERACY. Slave states that remained in the Union were allowed to keep their slaves. Lincoln considered the Slavery issue less important than the consolidation and perpetuation of Northern Power thru an all-powerful Federal Government.

Think of the irony of that. Lincoln made slavery illegal in a country he was at war against, supposedly because of slavery, but kept slavery legal in his own country.

I could go on and on, but like so many things in American History, quite often American policy smacks right in the face with everything America stands for, but at the same time, that very hypocracy makes America the great nation it is. Other examples include the genocide of the American Indians and the Mexican American War.

I'm from Michigan. That makes me a northerner for those who dont know where Michigan is. I live in the Detroit area which is probably one of the most racist areas in the country. In both directions.

I would like to statethat I am glad at the outcome of the Civil War because I believe 1 America is better and stronger than 2. That doesn't change my opinion of the legitimacy of the war.

The cost was and is high. Issues such as States Rights, the 10th Amendment, the 9th Amendment and serious checks against the Federal Government by the States are history. The entire idea of different American Cultures within America is treated as joke. Too often those who express a local pride are called racist or hicks by those who have been brainwashed by political correctness. The people that want to ban the Confederate Battle Flag or want to tell individual states or people that they have to conform to some national norm basically want to ban something that is foriegn to "their American Experience" They are far more intolerant than the people they shun.

Remember true tolerance, tolerates.

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
I don't thnk there's more poverty in the South. I'd have to see statistics to that effect.

I'll offer this reference as rebuttal in advance.
http://www.citymayors.com/features/uscity_poverty.htmlv

Come down around the delta or a lot of rural areas and show the folks your numbers and see if they are impressed by them. Be sure and mention how special Texas is while your at it because everyone in the South just loves Texans.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
Texas had the right.

Nope.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Deity Dude
And just how would the world have ended if there had been 2 nations between Mexico and Canada as opposed to 1.

Well, I imagine WWI and WWII might have turned out quite a bit differently, especially with the CSA siding with Nazi Germany.

[Arrian]

Sprayber Well said.

-Arrian

[SlowwHand]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Nope.

You have such insightful input.

Say "Nope" all day, but you're wrong and the facts have been shown. If you don't like the facts, that doesn't matter too much in the scheme of things.

[Wycoff]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara Well, I imagine WWI and WWII might have turned out quite a bit differently, especially with the CSA siding with Nazi Germany.

I doubt that there would have been a Nazi Germany had the CSA won the war, as WW1 almost certainly would have come out differently .

Harry Turtledove has written an interesting series of books on this topic. It's not the best prose in the world, but he plausibly extrapolates what he thinks would have happened had the CSA won the Civil War. When WW 1 comes around, the CSA joins the Entente and the U.S. sides with the Central powers. I won't go into more detail and further threadjack the topic.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

CSA and Canada IIRC in an American front.

[SlowwHand]

Oh come on. Like the CSA didn't have enough problems, now they're teamed with Canada?

Where's my hari-kari knife?

[Arrian]

I've read some Turtledove. I've concluded he's crap.

-Arrian

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Well, I imagine WWI and WWII might have turned out quite a bit differently, especially with the CSA siding with Nazi Germany.

See How Few Remain and sequels.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Arrian
I've read some Turtledove. I've concluded he's crap.

-Arrian

I agree. Annoyingly, I've read a lot of his books for the "what happens next" factor.