Is there money in it - career advices

[Pekka]

Jrabbit, right, right. But I do have interest in that field as well, I find the field personally intriquing and there are lots of things to be done. They are of personal interest. So it comes down to personal interest vs money.

But even working for someone else in this field woudl be of personal interest, so it's not black and white issue.

So I wondered, if I go for the PhD, would this raise the money thing some way in general. Because in here it doesn't matter, so that's why I ask if it matters in somewhere else, if there's new opportunities that comes with it.

[Garth Vader]

Originally posted by Asher
You can make six figures by the time you're 25 working with databases in the financial sector.

How do you get into that in the first place?

[Pekka]

into databases? Well if you're looking for .. education and degree for it, then do that. Also study some business and math wouldn't be bad idea either. Prepare yourself to be working with databases in financial sector. That's it I guess.

[Garth Vader]

A Comp Sci degree is usually pretty general, so I was just wondering if there was anything else special you'd need.

[Pekka]

Well.. take all the courses you can on databases and everything that supports it. I think you are able to do it, since I could do it in here as well (focus 100% on databases).

[Asher]

Originally posted by Garth Vader
How do you get into that in the first place?

Focus on the DB courses in school. Know how to effectively use stored procedures (no one out of school seems to learn them), in particular transactions. Take courses in economics.

That's the easy part.

The hard part is to find an in -- usually via connections of some kind. I got "lucky" in that I got hired by a "boutique consulting company", based in Toronto, that specializes in custom financial software and database work. We have major contracts with many US investment banks, and when management moves around at those banks (eg, some Lehman Brothers execs (including their CTO) moved from Lehman Brothers to Barclays, who then went out and actively recruited our company to do some major projects with them.

Once you're in, you're in. The financial sector is swimming in money and it's very hard to find a personable person very familiar with both software engineering, databases, and financial markets. It's almost incestuous, people enter the financial software market and never leave it because it's quite a specialty.

[-Jrabbit]

Originally posted by Pekka
So I wondered, if I go for the PhD, would this raise the money thing some way in general. Because in here it doesn't matter, so that's why I ask if it matters in somewhere else, if there's new opportunities that comes with it.

Well, having a Ph.D. title will definitely give more credibility, which translates to an ability to charge premium rates for consulting, etc. So it's possible you'll make more money in the start-up phase by flashing your credentials around. If you're going to be selling products instead of expertise, it's a different ballgame.

In my situation (consulting, writing, marketing communications), I had tons of practical experience and a provable track record. My experience is that I had much less trouble acquiring clients becasue I could show them what I had done for others.

The tradeoff is payback period -- ironically, a neat little economics problem of its own. I saved years of time and tons of money by skipping extra education, replacing my 6-figure income just over one year from startup. But I had over 20 years of experience to leverage. Your mileage may vary...

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Pekka
Jrabbit, right, right. But I do have interest in that field as well, I find the field personally intriquing and there are lots of things to be done. They are of personal interest. So it comes down to personal interest vs money.

But even working for someone else in this field woudl be of personal interest, so it's not black and white issue.

So I wondered, if I go for the PhD, would this raise the money thing some way in general. Because in here it doesn't matter, so that's why I ask if it matters in somewhere else, if there's new opportunities that comes with it.

I have heard, in general, that you would be making more money by just getting experience in the field then in going for the PhD. Of course, in some, you need the PhD (physics).

Also, while you are going for your PhD you are poor

Jon Miller

[Pekka]

Yeah exactly. This is a clear time vs academic title/experience thing. I just don't think this would give me more opportunities taht would equal the time and experience spent on say private sector working.

The optimal solution would be to work in the company with permission to do the PhD at the same time, meaning you coudl research some stuff in the company and that could be credited for the work os PhD.

[Jon Miller]

Like it takes 5-6 years for a PhD (at least in physics). If I then go into industry (and in a non PhD required area) I would probably make roughly the same as someone who had just been working for those 5-6 years (roughly 100k a year). Of course, while I was going to school, the person who was working was making a lot more money than I.

Now the PhD opens up more possibilities for me.. but if I don't choose to pursue them it doesn't add much but acomplishment. Now I am still planning on being a scientist.. which requires the PhD (and doesn't pay near as much as industry).

JM

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Pekka
Yeah exactly. This is a clear time vs academic title/experience thing. I just don't think this would give me more opportunities taht would equal the time and experience spent on say private sector working.

The optimal solution would be to work in the company with permission to do the PhD at the same time, meaning you coudl research some stuff in the company and that could be credited for the work os PhD.

At least in physics, this gives you something that is a lot more similiar to an engineering PhD than a physics one. Which is well and good if that is what you want.

I am not sure, but I expect that Comp Sci has a similiar divide between application and fundamental research. I know that the Comp Sci Profs at my undergrad (I only know physics Profs at my graduate school) were much closer to Mathematicians than anything practical..

Jon Miller

[Jon Miller]

But in my undergrad, I heard some of the Comp Sci people complaining that you could get your degree in Comp Sci without ever getting mastery of a useful programming langauge..

Many of the classes had little to do with computers..

JM

[Gibsie]

in response to the 18.36 post

Not necessarily, I'm on the equivalent of 25,000 quid a year while I'm doing my EngD (Enchanced PhD)

[Eroberer]

Pekka, I've heard that there are two prime motivators in the professional world: money, and academic fame. Maybe this is simplistic, but I think somebody really smart and quotable said it, so there you go.

Regarding work right out of college (I assume you are in college right now?), how much experience do you have in your field? Are you getting your degree in Comp Sci or Info Services?

Here in the US, a lot of job descriptions will read: "Bachelors degree in Comp Sci, or related field, plus X years of experience," where X = between 3 and 10. In information security, you can be making up to 6 figures (US) with about 5 to 7 good years of experience, as it's a pretty up and coming industry.

Regarding the decision between academics and industry work, I might recommend that you try industry work ahead of academics, for at least a couple years. That's exactly what I'm hoping to do. You can see where the industry takes you, and make money and get some good contacts along the way.

Finally, I don't know how wide-eyed your plans are, but you should know that if you want to start a business in ANY industry, you have to know your competition inside and out. You have to be familiar with the entire landscape of the industry. You have to know what research and what products are being developed elsewhere, and where the expertise lies, and everything.

Anyway, since I'm in an area of information security, too, I might be able to help you out if you told me a little more about your experience. What is the most interesting thing about the industry to you? What tasks do you like the most, and the least?

[Asher]

Be wary of Masters/PhDs...I started around the same time as a MSc in CompSci from McGill University and I earn slightly more than he does.

In more technical/aptitude-based fields, I'm not sure a PhD is as valued as it once was.