Indian 'Untouchables' convert to Buddhism to protest discrimination.

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by Provost Harrison


Why on Earth is a supposedly secular government registering the religion of people...it should be of no consequence whatsoever, and thus, shouldn't be officially counted...

For the same reason that 70 % of the money collected from Hindu temples goes to subsidise Muslims' Haj pilgrimage , that 15 % of it goes to fund Muslim madarsas , and only 15 % is returned to temples for maintainance and charity work ?

For votes , of course !

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by Starchild


The Buddhism that the Indian converts are joining include a list of rather anti-Hindu vows:

1) I shall have no faith in Brahma, Vishnu and Mahesh nor shall I worship them.
2) I shall have no faith in Rama and Krishna who are believed to be incarnation of God nor shall I worship them.
3) I shall have no faith in ?Gauri?, Ganapati and other gods and goddesses of Hindus nor shall I worship them.
4) I do not believe in the incarnation of God.
5) I do not and shall not believe that Lord Buddha was the incarnation of Vishnu. I believe this to be sheer madness and false propaganda.
6) I shall not perform ?Shraddha? nor shall I give ?pind-dan?.
7) I shall not act in a manner violating the principles and teachings of the Buddha.
8) I shall not allow any ceremonies to be performed by Brahmins.
9) I shall believe in the equality of man.
10) I shall endeavor to establish equality.
11) I shall follow the ?noble eightfold path? of the Buddha.
12) I shall follow the ten ?paramitas? prescribed by the Buddha.
13) I shall have compassion and loving kindness for all living beings and protect them.
14) I shall not steal.
15) I shall not tell lies.
16) I shall not commit carnal sins.
17) I shall not take intoxicants like liquor, drugs etc.
18) I shall endeavor to follow the noble eightfold path and practice compassion and loving kindness in every day life.
19) I renounce Hinduism, which is harmful for humanity and impedes the advancement and development of humanity because it is based on inequality, and adopt Buddhism as my religion.
20) I firmly believe the Dhamma of the Buddha is the only true religion.
21) I believe that I am having a re-birth.
22) I solemnly declare and affirm that I shall hereafter lead my life according to the principles and teachings of the Buddha and his Dhamma.

This rubbish , which has nothing to do with , and has no parallel in , any of the major or minor Buddhist sects ( Mahayana , Hinayana , and Vajrayana ) was first propogated by Ambedkar . The Buddha would be horrified to see this gross perversion of his noble ideals .

That is why I said that I wish the converts would try to find out more about Buddhism and realise that their idol was talking nonsense .

And it won't work . Do you think that people will stop treating them like they were simply because they became Buddhist ? The prejudiced will retain their prejudice , and maybe even strengthen it , seeing their rejection of the last commonalities between them .

The solution which will work is not conversion , but social reform . You have to educate the Dalits , make them self-dependent , so that they will not seek release in Ambedkarite destructiveness . You also have to educate the people in rural areas where discrimination is still a problem . Free primary and secondary education , scholarships when needed , social reform of the rural elite , these are the things that change society for good , not such ridiculous shows of rejection .

[Proteus_MST]

Yes,
it is not buddhist,
but this isn´t really strange.

After all these people don´t convert because they suddenly all really believe in buddhism (or what other religion they covnert to)
but it´s rather a conversion out of protest that parts of the indian society still treat them like rubbish.

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by LordShiva


The government, in the case, was elected by, and consists of, conservative Hindus.

That's ridiculous on two different levels .

Firstly , the argument that if you force someone to remain in one religion , he will love you . On the contrary - if you stop people from converting , or make it difficult , then the people affected will vote against you . You cannot mandate that someone vote for you , just by making conversion difficult .

Secondly - the Gujarat government is LOVED by the people of Gujarat . Visit the place sometime . When you cross over into the state from some other state of India , you feel like that you have changed countries and have come to some first world country and left India far behind . The people of Gujarat love the government , in spite of the negative portrayals of it in the outside media .

It is not just conservative Hindus , it is all the people who have benefited from the development that government has brought to the state . Gujarat is the best administered state in the Union of India .



But continue living in your deluded world where everything the BJP and RSS does is evil . I believe that they're a constructive force . I'm not saying they don't have their flaws , but the BJP is the lesser of two evils . I'll wait for history to deliver its verdict .

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by Proteus_MST
Yes,
it is not buddhist,
but this isn?t really strange.

After all these people don?t convert because they suddenly all really believe in buddhism (or what other religion they covnert to)
but it?s rather a conversion out of protest that parts of the indian society still treat them like rubbish.

As I said , it won't work !

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by aneeshm


As I said , it won't work !

It might put enough pressure on priests, society and/or the government, so that they finally will take action against the treatment of the lower castes.

I doubt that people of the upper castes will see any necessity to take action against these inequalities if the untouchables just endure everything done to them.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Indeed... it really seems to be the only voice these peasants have. They aren't paid attention to otherwise.

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by aneeshm
Firstly , the argument that if you force someone to remain in one religion , he will love you . On the contrary - if you stop people from converting , or make it difficult , then the people affected will vote against you . You cannot mandate that someone vote for you , just by making conversion difficult .

Of course. That's why the law is stupid, for this reason and for those I listed above.

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by LordShiva


Of course. That's why the law is stupid, for this reason and for those I listed above.

You seriously underestimate the intelligence of the Gujarat government if you think that they're dumb enough to fall into a fallacy which we could point out in two minutes .

[Nubclear]

Why can't you just accept that Hinduism and the caste system are twin oppressions upon the lower classes? Why can't you celebrate their conversion to a more tolerant and loving religion (ie Buddhism)?

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by Proteus_MST


It might put enough pressure on priests, society and/or the government, so that they finally will take action against the treatment of the lower castes.

What more , precisely , do you expect them to do ? They're already mandated a 50 % reservation in universities and colleges for lower castes . This is there also in government jobs .

Discrimination on a caste basis is illegal , and a punishable offense* . Temples are open to all castes . Hell , even priests can now be made out of lower castes** ( which is a good thing - let the lower castes realise how tough and unforgiving the life of a priest really is ) .


* This law is open to rampant abuse . One of my friends runs an agency where they provide nurses to senior citizens . They had no caste prejudices . They did not care about the caste of the nurses they employed . But one day , some nurse falsely accused them of using a caste-based word ( which is a punishable offense ) . That person started creating a fuss outside their house . The police had to be called in to restrain that person . Since that experience , they've stopped employing lower castes . They cannot afford to deal with troublemakers like this , and they have heard horror stories of other people who had to deal with the same things they had to . Is what they did wrong ?

** In the south , there are temples where the priests are traditionally only from the lower castes . These people , curiously enough , don't want priesthood to be open to everyone , because their dominance is threatened by upper-caste people coming in and becoming priests . So this is one curious case where some of the lower castes oppose the priesthood being open to everyone . These things can happen only in India .

Originally posted by Proteus_MST

I doubt that people of the upper castes will see any necessity to take action against these inequalities if the untouchables just endure everything done to them.

You are so wrong . Most reform movements have been started by upper castes . It is the upper castes who have done most of the work in breaking down the caste system .

Maybe you don't understand how ingrained it is . Before these reforms by the upper castes , the lower caste people did not even think that there was anything wrong with what they were undergoing - their thraldom was absoulte and complete . It is only with the modern ideas that the upper castes gave them that they are slowly learning to assert themselves .

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar
Why can't you just accept that Hinduism and the caste system are twin oppressions upon the lower classes? Why can't you celebrate their conversion to a more tolerant and loving religion (ie Buddhism)?

Because it is not a religious system , but a social system , which is responsible for their oppression ? Because when you actually study Hindu philosophy , caste is completely irrelevant ( it doesn't even credit a mention in any Hindu philosophical school ) ?

And you speak of Hinduism as if it were a monolithic entity with a fixed set of laws . It isn't . It is a continentwide group of religous forces , all interacting with each other .

And I have no problem with them converting to Buddhism , but I do have a problem with them evilly perverting a noble religion to suit their political agenda , as Ambedkar did . I want them to study Buddhism and realise that the Buddha was a philosopher , not a reformer , and that his views on caste were the same as everyone else at that time . He did not concern himself with the material world , and thought that the caste system was fine in its place . I want them to realise that Ambedkar was spouting junk .

In fact , it could be argued that Buddhism was partially responsible for the hardening of caste . His stress on non-violence , and its effect on Indian society , was to convert all respectable people away from professions which involved violence on animals , and dealing with animal products . They became very degraded professions/castes under the Buddhist order .

[Sikander]

Originally posted by lord of the mark

Kinda like those who say that racism isnt important anymore are usually white?

And kind of like those who say that only whites can be racists usually aren't white (but are racists).

[Sikander]

Originally posted by aneeshm

* This law is open to rampant abuse . One of my friends runs an agency where they provide nurses to senior citizens . They had no caste prejudices . They did not care about the caste of the nurses they employed . But one day , some nurse falsely accused them of using a caste-based word ( which is a punishable offense ) . That person started creating a fuss outside their house . The police had to be called in to restrain that person . Since that experience , they've stopped employing lower castes . They cannot afford to deal with troublemakers like this , and they have heard horror stories of other people who had to deal with the same things they had to . Is what they did wrong ?

That kind of reminds me of a story. Back in the 1970s some friends of mine had a restaurant. It had been white-only, but as civil rights lawsuits and such were becoming common my friends decided to serve all customers regardless of race. This went fine for a few years, but then one day they had trouble with a negro customer and decided to unofficially do everything could to discourage negroes from patronizing their business. I mean who could blame them, you try to give the negro a chance and a few years later one of them gives you trouble.

[Provost Harrison]

Originally posted by aneeshm


For the same reason that 70 % of the money collected from Hindu temples goes to subsidise Muslims' Haj pilgrimage , that 15 % of it goes to fund Muslim madarsas , and only 15 % is returned to temples for maintainance and charity work ?

For votes , of course !

What?