Now it is a crime in France to deny the armenian genocide, and a Turkish writer.....

[Bosh]

Originally posted by GePap


Then write a letter to the UN demanding the definition of Genocide be changed.

Since when is the UN in charge of determining the definition of English words?

[GePap]

Originally posted by Bosh


Since when is the UN in charge of determining the definition of English words?

Genocide has a clear definition, and it is a crime someone can be charged with in the courts.

That is the relevant definition of Genocide, the legal one. And the legal definition is clear that murder of a "class" of people constitutes Genocide. Again, feel free to argue for a change in the legal definition of the notion.

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Bosh


Since when is the UN in charge of determining the definition of English words?

What's a genos?

Genos is Greek, which I don't speak (hey that rhymes).

But when I look at the Latin "gens" and "genus" I find quite a lot of several meanings - "people" is only one of them. Others include things like tribe, clan, family, birth (sometimes valued like "from high birth" or so), kind, nation, sort, way (of acting) and some more....maybe you have the same or a similar variety of meanings for the Greek word?

It wouldn't be a first time a word can have a broader meaning. Anyway I find it rather pointless to split hairs about the semantics. And I simply don't understand the repeated complaints about the UN in this case when the member states agreed to this definition. If they had not agreed in the general assembly the def wouldn't be there now. So it's not some evil conspiracy that forced an unwanted definition on some helpless nations - those nations (including the anglophones) agreed to it, wanted it, and signed it, and they refer to it today when discussing cases that could count as genocide.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Spiffor

I have nothing against anyone considering Islam a despicable religion, since I'm an atheist, and I find all religions bad, including yours

However, I have a serious problem with people thinking who paint Muslims (i.e individuals who happen to believe in one religion) with a broad negative brush. The expression of this belief isn't similar to the expression of antisemitism, but it is very wrong nonetheless. And these broad generalizations contribute to an "us vs them" climate, which is not only wrong (see my point in this thread), but also very bad for the cohesiveness of the French society.

Now, I'm sure you're aware that I don't solely blame the Jews for this climate. Almost all groups that derive a sense of identity from religion, or from their attachment to a side in the middle east, contribute to that ****.

spiff, I know you think religion is a bad thing. Do you think believers in it are sons of pigs and dogs? The kind of thing that, while there are certainly many muslims who dont believe it, is much more widespread than support for Al Qaeeda, but doesnt disqualify one as a moderate?

as for how its expressed, well thats important, isnt it?

I also dont think getting ones identity from religion or being attached to one side in the ME is whats at work here. I know large numbers of people with attachments to a Jewish identity, and strong support for Israel, who are do NOT generalize about all muslims, who engage in outreach activities to muslims, etc, etc.

It may not be true for all Frenchmen, but my strong impression is that Islamophobia among French Jews is very largely related to their experience of violence from muslims in France. I would suggest its also related to experiences in Algeria, but then you seem to indicate its widespread among Ashkenazic Jews. I know a Jew of Moroccan origin here, but none of Algerian origin.

[lord of the mark]

http://www.jcpa.org/cjc/cjc-trigano-06.htm

'Condemning All Religions
"As far as the external environment was concerned, the headscarf problem emerged in 1989 for the first time in the town of Creil. There a number of Muslim girls insisted on wearing the headscarf in schools. In reaction, a very demanding, almost intolerant, secularism developed in French society. Also parts of the Jewish elite started to condemn the Jewish community, accusing it of 'communitarism.' Until then, the issue of the Jews belonging to a specific community had not been a major one, even if occasionally there were some tensions.

"In 1989 the French Republic celebrated its two hundredth anniversary. The intelligentsia and media wanted to condemn Islam without appearing to do so. To remain politically correct and avoid stressing that the enemy was Islamism, they invented other enemies - and thus condemned all religions.

"Many secular Jews strongly opposed all fundamentalisms. The French Jewish Left also started to attack the Jewish world, characterizing many of its elements as fundamentalist. These included Israeli settlers, religious Jews, Jewish communitarism, and religious intolerance.

"In this way part of the Jewish elite turned against the Jewish community. This may lead to an unmanageable situation. It marked the beginning of the decomposition of the Jewish communal structure of the postwar period. Yet a Jewish community in a democratic regime - and not a ghetto - has to be present in all social strata."



The Consistoire Leaves the CRIF
"Around that time the Consistoire left the CRIF. There were personal rivalries involved, but these were not the only factor. Emile Touati, the then president of the Consistoire, opposed the CRIF joining the new European Jewish Congress. He considered that its policy would be determined by the parent World Jewish Congress, and did not want American Jews to have influence in French affairs.

"There had long been a French section of the World Jewish Congress, but it was mainly known for financing an annual symposium of Jewish intellectuals. This gathering lost its significance when several leading French Jewish intellectuals, such as André Néher, Léon Ashkenazi, Eliane Amado Lévi-Valensi, Benno Gross, and Théo Dreyfuss, left for Israel. In that league, only Emanuel Levinas remained in France. Many activists emigrated as well.

"Looking back, we now know that the 1970s were intellectually a golden age. French Jewry then had an intellectual dimension. The community centers were full. Lectures often drew hundreds of people."



The Community Adrift
"The community's decline during the 1980s was in line with what happened in French society during the Mitterrand presidency. In those years, France sank under the weight of a new political strategy.

"Initially, the Socialists' coming to power in 1981 was received very positively by most French Jews, including myself. Some Jews believed that the 'Jewish vote' had helped the Socialist candidate win. This, though, is a myth: if there is a Jewish vote at all, it only exists in two or three Parisian suburbs.

"De Gaulle had stigmatized the Jews, calling them in 1967 'a domineering and arrogant people.' Since then it had become clear that the authorities were taking aim at the Jewish community, claiming it had a dual loyalty to France and to Israel. De Gaulle also moved France toward a pro-Arab policy.

"His successor as president, Georges Pompidou, had imposed an embargo on the delivery of Mirage combat planes that had been sold to Israel. Valéry Giscard d'Estaing, who became president in 1974, had been very cold to the Jewish community.

"The initial hopes were also inspired by the fact that several Jewish personalities close to Mitterrand were on the board of the FSJU. In the Jewish community a new leadership was emerging that, unlike the postwar generation, did not have serving the Jewish community as its major aim. Many new leaders used the Jewish community to promote their own political or professional careers.

"The main problem for the Jews with Mitterrand's presidency was that he used the Jewish community as a political tool in his antifascist front strategy. Against Le Pen, a danger he created artificially, he indeed needed the Jews' support to give credibility to his maneuver. This politicization of the Jewish community proved later to have pernicious consequences."



Under Attack
"Parts of the Jewish community have been criticizing the CRIF from several directions. Its silence during the 2001 anti-Semitic attacks jeopardized its status as representing the community. Under fire, its leadership failed.

"Part of the intelligentsia and the Jewish elites dislike the CRIF because they see it as a model for turning the Muslims into a community. In recent years, many in these circles have become the greatest advocates of French republican centralism while distancing themselves from Israel.

"Nowadays, the CRIF creates illusions with little substance behind them. Although eighteen ministers were present at its annual dinner this year, it has been amply shown that the CRIF has difficulty influencing the French authorities apart perhaps from the problem of anti-Semitism. It has not succeeded in changing the government's Middle East policy to any extent. The CRIF might evolve into a body similar to the Anti-Defamation League in the United States. Then it could make a concerted effort against anti-Semitism in France.

"If French Jews want true political representation, there is no other alternative than emigration to Israel. In the Diaspora, at least in France, there is a sharp dichotomy between Jewish affiliation and citizenship. Only in Israel is it possible to be 'Jewish' and democratically represented simultaneously.

"A strong manifestation of the CRIF's aberrations was that after the murder of a young Jew, Ilan Halimi, by West African Muslims in early 2006 and several attacks on Jews in the Parisian suburbs, the organization published a communiqué called 'France Is in Danger.' It warns the government that if no action is taken against anti-Semitism, parts of the Jewish community may become violent. One wonders if this is the CRIF's role."



The Problem of State Financial Support
"In France, far more of society's activities are financed by the state than in other countries. Many synagogues, for example, are monuments, and as such entitled to subsidy. The CRIF in Marseilles receives 79 percent of its financing from the central and regional governments. Thus voluntary organizations meant to represent Jewish interests are in fact, through their financing, influenced by the authorities.

"Contrary to the United States, numerous French Jewish schools are also financed by the state. They have to sign an agreement that they will teach according to the national curriculum. That leaves only six hours per week for teaching Jewish matters. Some Lubavitch schools do not accept this and thus receive no money. Many resemble the old cheder, not teaching mathematics or the French language.

"Once again the problem is not a specifically Jewish one. French newspapers and many other private organizations could not survive without government subsidies."



The Future
"According to a survey by Erik Cohen of Bar-Ilan University and Maurice Ifergan, perhaps a Jewish population of thirty thousand will emigrate. In 2003, 2,100 French Jews moved to Israel; in 2004, 2,415; and in 2005 the figure reached 3,000. This year, estimates are that about 3,500 will arrive.3 The importance lies not only in the numbers. These are very conscious Jews; many of those who want an intense Jewish life are attracted by Israel.

"Another factor influencing the community's future is that mixed marriages are on the increase. A new population will not be totally Jewish and not totally non-Jewish, neither converted out nor accepted for conversion by the Jewish community, but retaining a vague sense of belonging to the Jewish people. From these circles new types of Judaism, often of a syncretic nature, will inevitably emerge and further destabilize Jewish identity.

"Another important phenomenon is the increasing silent ghettoization. Because of the many problems in the public schools, more and more pupils are joining Jewish schools. Whereas in the past this was a voluntary choice, expressing affiliation, nowadays it is more and more an expression of fear and insecurity.

"This ghettoization, however, is drawing people into the community. The challenge facing French Jews, even more than the Muslim-Arab anti-Semitism, is to cultivate a sense of belonging to the Jewish people while totally remaining part of the French nation. At stake, in other words, is the legitimacy of a Jewish community."

Trigano concludes that the post-World War II model of French Jewish identity is in crisis in France. In his view, the organizational model that served the French community in the past decades is no longer valid. He adds: "It is unclear whether a new workable model will emerge to replace it."

[Spiffor]

Interesting read

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Oerdin
It's FORESKIN GENOCIDE!!!

ZOMFG! THats may favorite group!

[Sikander]

Originally posted by _BuRjaCi_

There's a word for that: Hipocracy.

Or in your example, not a word.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Brachy-Pride

Is killing all the members of the communist party in a country because you want to exterminate them
a genocide?

Sounds like prudence to me.

[Provost Harrison]

Originally posted by _BuRjaCi_
There's a word for that: Hipocracy.

Hypocrisy? I think Hippocracy is rule by horses

[BeBMan]

[_BuRjaCi_]

Damm, I can't spell anything right these days.

It apears I've been spendintg too much time on internet forums.

[Heresson]

What's greek word for frog?

[Spiffor]

"frogopoulos"?

[Az]

FYROG