Now it is a crime in France to deny the armenian genocide, and a Turkish writer.....

[Barnabas]

who acknowledges that the genocide did happen won the literature nobel, he has been on trial a few times in Turkey due to offending turkishness if I recall correctly.

What do you think of it?

[Spiffor]

Re: Now it is a crime in France to deny the armenian genocide

It was a hot potato. On the one hand, we're supposed to have a universal message and to oppose all genocides. The Armenian minority has been very active over here for years, which resulted in the parliamentary acknowledgment of the Armenian genocide in 2001, and now this.

On the other hand, it will only further sour relationships with Turkey, one of the few countries that remained largely francophile until a few years ago.

As a result, very few representatives wanted to vote about it. It's hard to vote against such a law (considering that we already ban denying the Jewish genocide), but it's also quite annoying to vote in favour of it.

[Whoha]

Thats why politicians get the big bucks right? to make the hard calls.

[Jonny]

Why is such a law even up for vote? Surely there's a much better way to take an active stance against genocide than just legislating what people can and cannot think. After all, the genocide-denying crazies are going to keep on thinking what they think, law or no law...

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Whoha
Thats why politicians get the big bucks right? to make the hard calls.

Over here, they don't really get big bucks. They are largely underpaid both by American and European standards.

[Dinner]

I personally think the whole thing is stupid (refering to the law and not the writer) because it is an infringement to the right to free speech. Unpopular speech is exactly the type which needs protecting since no one opposes popular speech. Also the best way to combat lies is by continually telling the truth not to outlaw lying.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Jonny
Why is such a law even up for vote?

Like most European countries, freedom of speech isn't absolute in France, there are some limitations. Holocaust-denial is among banned speech, as well as racial/religious/sexist incitement. This is compatible with our tradition of liberalism, which is different to the Anglo-Saxon one.

As a result, it is nearly unimaginable to cancel the law against holocaust-denial. We are used to it (it's been decades), and the Jewish community would not understand (and vote against whoever cancels this law).

The Armenian community is understandably very active about the genocide. Now that we have officially acknowledged the Armenian genocide, it is hard to tell them that its memory can't enjoy the same protection as the Jewish one. It is actually impossible.

Surely there's a much better way to take an active stance against genocide than just legislating what people can and cannot think. After all, the genocide-denying crazies are going to keep on thinking what they think, law or no law...

Remember, the law against holocaust denial is a law against negationnist speech, not negationnist thought. Its aim is to prevent the emergence of an active community of negationnist literature, which would fuel the flames of the far right.
You'll notice that, in societies where negationnist expression is widespread, there are many more people who believe the holocaust is a fabrication. See Iran. Post-war Europe might have been much more negationnistic if it weren't for such laws. However, they're now fairly outdated, but we have to make do with them.

I guess we'll reach the limit in a few years/decades, as more minority groups will want to enshrine their own catastrophe in the law. The French black community is active in this regard with slavery, for example.

[Dinner]

It's still wrong.

[Nubclear]

Because banning speech we don't like is working so well for Europe right now Why, the far rightist parties haven't had victories in Europe in...well, nevermind

(I would make a quip about how such speech is allowed in the US and far-right parties don't win all that often, except that both main parties of the US are far-rightist, so I'd be pwnd)

[Kuciwalker]

The French law is a disgrace.

[VetLegion]

France is setting a bad example for other countries in Europe

[dannubis]

I normally am no big fan of French foreign policy but i must say that i am conflicted on this one.

And the law does not say it can not be debated. You can't just deny it ever happened.

And again, some very consistent reactions from our american friends. when the iranian president claims the jewish genocide never happened you scream for his blood. when france passes a law that actually forces people to face the issue it is a disgrace.

[BeBMan]

Re: Now it is a crime in France to deny the armenian genocide, and a Turkish writer..

Originally posted by Brachy-Pride
who acknowledges that the genocide did happen won the literature nobel, he has been on trial a few times in Turkey due to offending turkishness if I recall correctly.

What do you think of it?

It's an euro conspiracy to keep Turkey out of the EU

[Rufus T. Firefly]

The problem is, it wasn't a genocide. An atrocity, sure. A war crime, definitely. A crime against humanity even. But not a genocide.

Armenians in Eastern Turkey were led on a forced march that killed a huge number of them before arrival at their new destination (the parallels to the forced removal of the Chreokee from Georgia -- the Trail of Tears -- are very, very striking). At the same time, Armenians living in Istanbul, Izmir and elsewhere were left entirely alone.

It was horrific, and the Turks are idiots for not admitting it happened and apologizing (they're even bigger idiots because they could blame the whole thing on the Ottomans and claim it has nothing to do with the Turkish republic). But it wasn't genocide.

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly
But it wasn't genocide.

Why not?