The lesser of two evils - what will the West choose ?

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by MRT144
Id rather die believing in what is right, than living what i know is wrong.

and JM, its the "Christian" whackos that advocate retaliation and genocide for the West. I use Christian to set up the hypocrisy of our beliefs if we don't follow them, or even attempt to.

I know plenty of non"Christian" (that means they don't claim to be Christian, not that I claim that they aren't behaving like they are Christian..) people, atheists and agnostics, etc, who advocate retaliation and genocide for the West.

This isn't, on our side, about religion.

JM

[Jon Miller]

And I don't consider Muslims my enemy, or Iraq, or any of that. I don't advocate nuking them..etc. I am not in favor of Iraq, (I use to be ambivlent towards it).

But I guaruntee that some of the Al Quada types consider me to be their enemy.

JM

[GePap]

Originally posted by Jon Miller

But I guaruntee that some of the Al Quada types consider me to be their enemy.

JM

Yeah, they do. So what? Your views are based on their views? If that is true, then they are the ones setting the agenda, because you are purely reacting to their actions.

[Jon Miller]

No, as I said. I don't consider them my enemy. I don't behave as they are my enemy. I don't favor taking stands against them, etc.

But yes, I do recognize that some want such a conflict to be occuring. You, and others in this thread, apparently want the conflict to be Christians versus Muslims.. since that would prove something to you. the Al Quada types wish to be Muslims versus the West.. or something.

Just because I recognise others thoguht processes does not mean that I have those same ones myself.

Give me a break here, I am not the person you wish to pigeon hole me as. Neither are a lot of other people.

JM

[Kuciwalker]

I'm not going to go all Jesus-like and turn the other cheek, GePap. If someone makes you their enemy there isn't that much you can do.

[Vince278]

I'm far from being a Christian wacko and I'm not advocating genocide. I'm just telling it the way I see it if both sides don't learn how to back down and things go inevitably the way they're going.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Vince278
I'm far from being a Christian wacko and I'm not advocating genocide. I'm just telling it the way I see it if both sides don't learn how to back down and things go inevitably the way they're going.

On one side of this so called "war" you have rich, powerful states, and on the other a bunch of violent and weak NGO's who can only thrive in areas of chaos.

The problem is that those weak NGO's feed off the failure of the regimes that rule the Islamic world. These NGO's are too weak to be able to topple these autocratic regimes, so they strike at what they think are the patrons of those local regimes, in doing so trying to win the sympathy and support of the subjects of those autocratic regimes.

The sad part of this "war" is that most of the actions taken by these rich states have served mainly to increase support for the ideology of the violent NGO's.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
I'm not going to go all Jesus-like and turn the other cheek, GePap. If someone makes you their enemy there isn't that much you can do.

There are plenty of things you can do, depending on the balance of power.

If a guy twice my size decided to label me his enemy, the situation is fundamentally different from some three year old saying he is my enemy.

[Odin]

Originally posted by GePap
What the **** is the "West" anyways?

Catholic and Protestant Europe, the US, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand.

This is a war between modern political ideologies, which is what Islamism and Liberal democracy are.

I suggest you read This book if you really believe that.

Huntington believed that while the age of ideology had ended, the world had only reverted to a normal state of affairs characterized by cultural conflict. In his thesis, he argued that the primary axis of conflict in the future would be along cultural and religious lines. As an extension, he posits that the concept of different civilizations, as the highest rank of cultural identity, will become increasingly useful in analyzing the potential for conflict.

[GePap]

Sorry, but I have always had nothing but contempt for Huntington's little book, just as I did for Fukiyama's "End of History."

[MRT144]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
I'm not going to go all Jesus-like and turn the other cheek, GePap. If someone makes you their enemy there isn't that much you can do.

nukes are a psychological defense for the recipient and owner of them. if either side disregards them as such and only views them as offensive or retaliatory weapons of real destruction then they are useless to end a conflict where someone comes out a victor.

and if someone makes me their enemy i turn the other cheek. and im only slightly christian. more ethics than mystics.

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Odin
I suggest you read This book if you really believe that.

The prob with Huntington is that what he describes as clash of civs and "cultural conflict" can be very well described as conflict of ideologies as well (certainly in the current conflict vs. radical islamism), so his belief that "the age of ideology had ended" is just too strongly focussed on the end of the cold war and the idea that afterwards there wouldn't be serious ideological conflicts anymore. I think today he wouldn't be so quick in announcing the end of the "age of ideology".

[Admiral]

Huntington's an idiot on any number of levels. First, you simply can't generalize out to the level that he does. Second, Huntington's whole notion of "Civilizations" is bogus (Sorry, Sid). You cannot draw a line and say this is "Western" civilization and this is "Islamic" civilization. The Islamic world has been engaging and shaping Europe almost since the inception of Islam, while obviously European (and later "Western") nations have played and continue to play an important role in the Islamic world.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by MRT144
and if someone makes me their enemy i turn the other cheek. and im only slightly christian. more ethics than mystics.

If they try to kill you?

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by GePap
There are plenty of things you can do, depending on the balance of power.

If a guy twice my size decided to label me his enemy, the situation is fundamentally different from some three year old saying he is my enemy.

9/11 demonstrates the "balance of power." Believe it or not, they can hurt us.