Pope angers muslims

[Whoha]

The Pope should offer to issue his apology inside of the most visited Christian church in Mecca.

[VetLegion]

I'm just too brutal for this unsuspecting forum

[Wycoff]

The backlash has begun:

Italian nun shot dead by Somali gunmen

[Velociryx]

As soon as the Theocrats whining about a few remarks from the Pope apologize for their zelots blowing up innocent women and children in cafe's around the world and make at least a token effort to stop the faith's extremists from declaring a flavor of the week Jihad against this or that, that's about when the Pope should apologize for a handful of remarks that might have painted the Islamic Religion of Peace in a bad light.

Until then....why do we care if they're whining again? Did they get their poor widdle feelings hurt?

-=Vel=-

[Elok]

Now we're all thinking: "Would it be too lame and obvious to remark that killing a holy woman sworn to nonviolence is not a good proof of the goodness and decency of one's own religion?" Probably so, but somebody has to say it, so there it is. Assuming, of course, that this is in fact a reaction to the Pope's remarks and not just standard Somali brutality that happened to pick on a RCC target by coincidence.

[Velociryx]

Just read that article....yes...so let's see now....Pope makes some remarks that might be considered to paint Islam in a bad light and then.....extremists go out and murder someone (or in this case, a couple of someones), one of whom has dedicated her life to peace and healing?

Guess which one paits Islam in a worse light...anyone?

-=Vel=-

[Lord Avalon]

Originally posted by Wycoff
The backlash has begun:

Italian nun shot dead by Somali gunmen

God* save us from extremists of any religion.

*Or other deity/-ies, spirit(s), power(s) that be, fate, etc, etc etc.

[Heresson]

I think the apology was a mistake. Muslims should learn that others have right to criticise them. Here, they actually refused the right of leader of a souvereign state, and the biggest denomination in the world, to quote someone scepticall of islam
Muhammad had some good sides, definitely, but he's done a lot of bad stuff as well. If You treat testimony of Ibn Ishaq, a muslim (!) historian (of jewish origin, though) about the massacre of Banu Qurayza tribe, You can easily describe it as evil and inhuman. And while some deny it, it's something new and while I can't say most, for I didn't make no polls, many muslims acknowledge that entire male population (but two adults and children) of this tribe was wiped out with Muhammad's approvement.
They acknowledge it, yet they do not find it a blemish.
Why? Precisely because of what pope's said. If God is treated as perfectly transcendent and if our minds are not capable of understanding Him at all, You can not expect Him to be bound by consistency, by morals, by human virtues. The case is not that easy, but it is an interesting point.
I actually used to tell it to muslims that were asking me about my view of islam that my problem with it was Muhammad, his wars and the massacre of B. Qurayza tribe. I never met anger because of that, perhaps the choice of this specific quote was not fortunate, but the responce actually may prove poor Manuel II right in hearts of many.
Still...
Pope's apology will only cause muslims to stay in their "don't you dare criticise Muhammad" attitude.
We're not living under shari'ah, do we?
At least not yet. I don't want pope to bow to some radical muslims that are unable to read his speach.

[Winston]

If anyone should apologize, it ought to be the ill-behaved Muslims.

[Robert]

The pope didn't 'insult' the muslims because he said things about Islam or about muslims. Like the muslims weren't insulted by the danish cartoons because it made fun of Islam or muslims.

They were insulted because it made fun of Mohammed (cartoons). And they were insulted because the pope said negative things about Muhammed. In Islam Muhammed is the most holy person, you can't paint him, show him, say bad things about him, etc.

They key though is that this same Muhammed is the source of all violence in Islam. Muhammed was a warrior, he spread his faith with the sword. He called for the execution of non-muslims. The muslim-violence can be compared to christian violence.
Jesus can't be compared to Muhammed though. Everybody agrees that Jesus was a peacefull man. Everybody agrees as well that Muhammed used a lot of violence.

Neither can the New Testament be compared to the Quran. Everybody agrees that the New Testament forbids christians to use violence and tells them to obey the governament of the land they're in. To turn the other cheek. It even tells christians that they should respect differences of opinion. Again, this can't be said about the Quran. There are many passages that are at least very very very questionable. Of course does the Old Testament come with violence but the New Testament changes the rules of the Old Testament. Not an eye for an eye anymore but turn the other cheek.

Therefor the only conclusion is that Islam is violent at it's core and christianity is not.
That doesn't mean that christianity has committed a lot of violence and has done a lot of things wrong. A very big lot of things. But once again, the core of christianity is peacefull.

The muslims are insulted because the pope has linked the violence of Islam to Muhammed himself. It's true though. They can be angry but it's still true.

Not to mention that the RCC has done the Mea Culpa in 2000. Have we ever seen a Muslim Mea Culpa? 99% of the christians in the world wants to say sorry for all the wrongs christianity has done any time of the day. If you ask a muslim about the muslim wrongs they only want to come with all kinds of excuses. I have only heard very few muslims saying sorry for the terrorist attacks. Most are only saying: "We didn't do it". Well, I didn't do the crusades as well but I'm still very very very sorry and ashamed for it.

So we have:
Jesus: peacefull
Muhammed: violent

New Testament: peacefull
Quran: violent

christian reaction on wrongs: mea culpa
muslim reaction on wrongs: we didn't do it

christians: violent
muslims: violent

Again: christian wrongs can't be compared to muslim wrongs. Of course there are millions of muslims who are good people who can't be blamed for the wrongs of Islam but I think it's too political correct to claim that Islam is a religion of peace for it is not. It's not in it's core. And eventhough many muslims are good people their religion is not. And that's totally different with christianity where indeed many of it's followers are very wrong, the faith in itself is not.

I hope we can open our eyes for that and stop the politicall correct BS.
And we'll see in the coming years that Islam is violent, we'll see more and more of these reactions from the muslims. I'd say: let's handle them with respect but we should not let us to be mislead, they are dangerous for political power is the core of Islam and there are MANY muslims who won't rest before their religion dominates the world, political and as a faith.

[Velociryx]

Why do you hate those peace loving Muslims, Cybershy?



-=Vel=-

(kidding! )

[Robert]

I love them! Those peace loving muslims
There should be more of them :P

[Heresson]

just a small correction: You can't show ANY human, actually. It is more restrictive when it comes to Muhammad, because muslims don't want to be accused of idolatry... but they do not notice You don't need statues of icons for idolatry.

Btw, Cybershy: You're from Delft!
Allard Hofelt, once - great civ2 guy, used to study there. I visited this city. It was very nice, and greeted me very nicely. Very a'propos Allard, for he was a filhellene and that's why he was very anti-turkish.
I was gazing at one of the water channels, and noticed a duck swinmming in direction of some ripples, as if for food. I looked up to see what are the ripples. They were caused by a girl vomiting into the channel. The funny thing that she was standing back to turkish restaurant, as if she just walked out of it.
Not a nice sight, but it reminded me of Allard very much, because of this turkish part.
Again: it was the nicest city I've visited in Netherlands, actually.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by CyberShy

Again: christian wrongs can't be compared to muslim wrongs.

Ah, because Christian wrongs aren't as wrong as Muslim wrongs ?

Since when ?


If an Orthodox Serb slits the throat of a Bosnian Muslim or Catholic Croat then somehow that is not as bad as if a Bosnian Muslim did the same to a Catholic Croat or Orthodox Serb ?

Bizarro world logic.

And that's totally different with christianity where indeed many of it's followers are very wrong, the faith in itself is not.

Which is undoubtedly exactly what many peace-loving non-violent Muslims would and do say about Muslims who use violence to achieve their aims and how they stand in relation to Islam.


How do the actions of SOME Muslims equate with the faith or actions of all Muslims ?

Do we judge all Christians and the whole of Christianity by the violence used by some Christians to effect a desired outcome ?


Gimme that old time religion:

"I denounce you, Anti-Christ!"

said by the 'Reverend' Ian Paisley, Moderator of the Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster during a visit by Pope John Paul II to the European Parliament in 1988.

Listen here to the apostle of peace's tirade:

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?currSection=&sermonID=6842

Randall Terry, Christian anti-abortionist:

I want you to just let a wave of intolerance wash over you. I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good.... Our goal is a Christian nation. We have a Biblical duty, we are called by God, to conquer this country. We don't want equal time. We don't want pluralism.

The News-Sentinel, Fort Wayne, Indiana, 16th August, 1993


Bosnia:

During the wars the Greek media was fanatically pro-Serb, portraying Yugoslav Muslims as 'infidel Turks' bent on destroying their Orthodox brethren. 'Editorial interference was a given,' he said.

But it was not only hospitality or money that the Greeks offered. Spiritual succour was provided by the Greek Orthodox church which sent priests to the front line (several clerics received bravery medals from Plavsic).

In a step repeated in no other country, Archbishop Serafeim invited the Bosnian Serb leader Radovan Karadzic to visit Athens in 1993. At a mass rally attended by prominent politicians, the indicted war criminal proclaimed:

'We have only God and the Greeks on our side.'

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/milosevic/story/0,,868869,00.html

An example of what believing 'we' have

God on our side

means when put into action:

[Heresson]

You're totally missing the point