Pope angers muslims

[Heresson]

No, and it's one of the reasons why he should not have apologised. Muslims are silly obesessed with their true and imaginary harms, and blind when it comes to harms they do themselves.

[BeBMan]

I agree that it would be rather a non-issue if some people wouldn't have reacted that hysterical. If one agrees with the pope or not it's an absurd reaction to go crazy because of such a quote, although I didn't expect much better from the radicals after the row over the cartoons.

As for his apology, I have mixed feelings about that - on the one hand I agree we should stay with our principles, and not give in anytime some radicals which are unable to take criticism complain but on the other it's clear that people can suffer a lot if the climate becomes more violent, and these will be people that do not have vast security around them like the pope has, so I can understand the need to calm things down. As prominent figure like the pope you have a certain responsibility that goes beyond your own well-being.

[Heresson]

but the responsibility is also not to appease silly demands, for it only brings worse

[VetLegion]

Originally posted by BeBro
Vet, the speech he made was in a university context, so supposed to be part of a discussion or even as part of a dialogue of religions (although that didn't came out too well ). However, he was not in "infallible mode"

There is nothing logically wrong with his speach (therefore he hasn't failed), he expressed regret at "people being upset by speech", he didn't and won't apologize. So it's not really important in which mode he was in.

The important question is what to do in the future. I think that Pope should watch his mouth, like American FED chairman when speaking about economy. The market is crazy and will overreact, so be sure to speak carefully or omit muslims from speeches completely.

[Heresson]

it's normal for economy to overreact. every economy does. it's not normal for a specific group to kill people and burn temples over taken out of context quotes of someone quoting someone.
I get to the point muslims should be offended more often to get the feeling and get used to it.

[Cort Haus]

Do Bears still sh*t in the woods?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Heresson

By hypocrisy I've ment what I've given example for. Muhammad clearly said that f.e. You should cut hands for theft. Some claim that by "cut" he actually didn't mean "cut off", but lash or whatever. Well, that's a sollution of a kind, but a hypocrisy as well.

The Hebrew scriptures say that you should take an eye for an eye, etc.. The rabbis in the Talmud said that really means monetary compensation to the value of an eye. They came up with about a dozen justifications for reading the text that way. As my own Rabbi pointed out a few weeks ago, the justifications are tortured, and dont really make sense. The reality is that they couldnt accept that bibilical law was less humane, less merciful, than secular law. Ergo (in his opinion) certain standards of compassion and mercy trump dictate how we should interpret halakha, and we have precedent going back to the Talmud for that. (this was in the context of discussing homosexuality)

I presume you consider that a kind of hypocrisy. To me that suggests simply a lack of sympathy for the "struggles" involved with this kind of legal system.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Heresson


even Theodosius didn't force anyone... pagan sacrifices were banned, and later pagan cult, but not paganity per se. That's bad, but that's a difference.

If you ban the practice of another religion, and force parents to raise their children in the state religion, does the fact that you dont actually force anyone to formal conversion rites really matter?

How about banning conversion from Christianity to another religion, like say Judaism.

The point is that coercion in matters of faith was accepted by Christians.

[lord of the mark]

"In shari'a system, You do not have a choice to leave it."

You cant leave Halakha either. In theory. But theres nothing we can do about it.

"And the system is a state. That's actually one of the explenations why there's death penalty for apostasy" apostasy was leaving the ummah, treason of the state.
Well, I have a thought that they could say that now, when islam is no longer a state, it's no longer a necessity. But that'd demand treating Muhammad and Islam in historical context, which they do not."

If you leave Islam in Turkey, are you subject to the DP? In Albania? Hell even in Afghanistan they ended up not killing the guy, and thats one of the most conservative places in the Islamic world.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Heresson


It is true, but it does not apply to devoted muslims. They can not turn back the time and accept Meccan Muhammad only

If we except the extremists definition of "devoted". I daresay some of the liberals consider themselves quite devoted.

[Heresson]

Albania was the only openly atheist state in the world... it is as muslim as czech republic is catholic. or less

Turkish Republic was created by a guy who stated that islam is a "stinking corpse poisoning our life", "illogical teachings of some immoral beduin" etc.
Still, I can't imagine someone leaving islam on some turkish province. I've heard some not nice histories like that.

Afghanistan needs foreign aid, so it will not annoy it by something like this.
It's not a question of the punishment... Forbidding it is bad enough. And it is a state law in many countries

[VetLegion]

Originally posted by Heresson
I get to the point muslims should be offended more often to get the feeling and get used to it.

How often did you offend them in Syria?

I still stand behind my idea. We should combat this bullsh1t by completely ignoring it. That means no TV broadcasts of protests, no news reports, no nothing. The fact that protests make it into news is a big part of what makes them protest, IMO. They all want to be in my avatar, but there's only place for one guy there.

[Heresson]

As I've mentioned, I always said - as politely as I could - that what I dislike in islam the most is Muhammad's actions etc.

[BeBMan]

And how did they dealt with that?

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by VetLegion
We should combat this bullsh1t by completely ignoring it. That means no TV broadcasts of protests, no news reports, no nothing. The fact that protests make it into news is a big part of what makes them protest, IMO.