US House canidate from MN set be become first Muslim congressman

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Lonestar
No, it isn't.

Indeed, it's completely western.

And I hope he'll win. The US definitely needs more progressives at the house

[Az]

umm, how's he a progressive? maybe I've missed it, but I don't see any actual platform points or previous actions ( or at least previous actions that point out to him being "progressive" )

[Spiffor]

http://www.keithellison.org/issues.htm

[Az]

generally cool, though many a 'redneck' would disagree about "educational apartheid". Healthcare Iraq

sounds like a cool guy. Too bad he had to "find allah" or whoever else to do this.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by lord of the mark



All vibrant religious traditions have absorbed things from different religions, and different civilizations. The confrontation of the Abrahamic traditions with the Benares traditions, and Sinic traditions (and of course Sinic religion is itself influenced by both Indic and earlier Chinese traditions) is one of the important factors of the modern age, and the encounter has been ongoing since at least the Transcendentalists. Without commenting on the particular ways New Agey types approach things, at some level "pick'n mix" is almost inevitable, and is a good thing.

As I was commenting on the New Age pick'n'mix approach of 'hippie' crusty types only, the rest of your post on the mixed parentage of major world religions is just stuff I already know in detail- the oft-unappreciated influence of Zoroastrianism on Christianity, Judaism and Islam for instance.

I'm afraid that a New Age incoherent belief system which wanders all over the religion shop selecting feng shui, smudging, shamanism, Wicca, Gnosticism, Buddhism, crystals and dragons and anything else that looks pretty, 'deep' and glittery, lacks sufficient intellectual rigour for me to compare it with any of the major monotheistic faiths or the philosophy of Buddhism, or Hinduism for that matter.

Mmm, deep and meaningful New Age iconography. Why, it's just like looking at the Book of Kells or the Dome of the Rock....

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Oerdin
The middle east and north africa were western at the time. It was only after the Arab invasion that it became unwestern in culture.

Not true at all, unless you think the Sassanids were somehow 'Western'.

When the armies of the Arabs invaded North Africa the population was made up of Libyans, Berbers, Vandals, Moors, Jews, Greeks, and the descendants of the various other groups that had been there since Phoenician times.

Neither the Phoenicians, Carthaginians nor the Jews can be accurately described as 'Western', whatever that's meant to mean with regards to early Mediaeval North Africa, and it was the Eastern Roman Empire which was defeated by the Arab armies in North Africa.

Also, the Arabs of the Middle East weren't simply nomadic Bedouin, but were also sophisticated inhabitants of city states (on a Graeco-Roman pattern) and kingdoms (both Christian and pagan). Mnay Arabs spoke Demotic Greek as well as Aramaic and Latin.

You really need to get off your anti-Arab hobby horse.


And calling Muhammad a child rapist is just being needlessly offensive.

What's your evidence for this rape, where did it take place, and on whom ?

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Sikander
Amusingly, most Muslims have little to no respect for Nation of Islam types. Many do not consider them Muslims at all. America still awaits its first "real" Muslim congressman.

True.

Ellison is not guilty of the 'crime' of being a muslim. He does however have much to answer about. Unpaid taxes for one.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by molly bloom



As I was commenting on the New Age pick'n'mix approach of 'hippie' crusty types only, the rest of your post on the mixed parentage of major world religions is just stuff I already know in detail- the oft-unappreciated influence of Zoroastrianism on Christianity, Judaism and Islam for instance.

I'm afraid that a New Age incoherent belief system which wanders all over the religion shop selecting feng shui, smudging, shamanism, Wicca, Gnosticism, Buddhism, crystals and dragons and anything else that looks pretty, 'deep' and glittery, lacks sufficient intellectual rigour for me to compare it with any of the major monotheistic faiths or the philosophy of Buddhism, or Hinduism for that matter.

Mmm, deep and meaningful New Age iconography. Why, it's just like looking at the Book of Kells or the Dome of the Rock....

while in ancient times, there certainly want the range of choices available to the religious shopper as today (an ancient Roman in the eastern empire had the different aspects of Greco-Roman paganism, Judaism, Zorostrianims and its Mithraic offshoots, egyptian religiopn, and semitic paganisms, and in China one had Lamaist Buddism, and the various traditional cults wrapped up with Confucianism, and Taoist thought) Im not sure past syncretism was any more intellectually rigourous. My sense is that in many places ordinary people took practices and stories that met their spiritual needs, and the intellectual justification was done by post hoc.

My sense is also that most religious tradition have had their share of kitsch, whether in art or in ritual.

One of the more interesting discoveries in art history, IIUC, is that ancient Greek statues were painted, and that our Renaissance and post-Ren view of them is impacted by the accident that all the paint had chipped off.

[Drewcifer]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
Given that Congress is losing the voice of McKinney it only makes sense to have the requisite replacement of a hate whitey, antisemite, in bed with Farrakhan congressman.

Do you even have any idea what you are talking about? Hate Whitey? When he is elected he will be elected in a majority white district with white votes. If he hated white people there is no way he would be elected, he would have never have gotten the DFL endorsement. He was also endorsed by a number of Jewish groups in the district.

He is no McKinney, she is a nut.

Most people I know around here are genuinely excited about this guys politics.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

I suspect the fact that he will indeed get elected says more about the anything but a repug than anything else.

As well as being supported by DFL and local jewish extablishment he has rousing support of the gay community. A point that needs to be examined considering his lackof support for gay marriage (in keeping with his historical "supposedly defunct" ties to Nation of Islam). Again the point here is "the anything but a Repug" sentiment is far stronger than even the most near and dear matters for specific interest groups.

[Straybow]

D'ya think??

[Spiffor]

Clearly, this is the reason why Wellstone served from 1991 to his death in 2002.

[Drewcifer]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Clearly, this is the reason why Wellstone served from 1991 to his death in 2002.

Don't be so sure about that. Wellstone was LOVED by half the electorate in Minnesota. Most of us who supported him can't imagine another American polician like that again in our lifetime. He is a legend in this state. He was the only man in Washington who was worth a crap (in either party).

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


while in ancient times, there certainly want the range of choices available to the religious shopper as today (an ancient Roman in the eastern empire had the different aspects of Greco-Roman paganism, Judaism, Zorostrianims and its Mithraic offshoots, egyptian religiopn, and semitic paganisms, and in China one had Lamaist Buddism, and the various traditional cults wrapped up with Confucianism, and Taoist thought) Im not sure past syncretism was any more intellectually rigourous.

The ancient pagan Roman was for a long time a polytheist- so incorporated whatever new gods came along if they happened to fill a need.


As I pointed out in another thread, the pragmatic pagan Romans even had a catalogue of gods, the 'Indigitamenta', which set out which gods were suitable for praying to for which purpose, and which were the suitable prayers or sacrifices.

Rather more rigorous in its practical approach to the supernatural and faith than browsing the latest pamphlets on dragons, crystals and the deep thought of Deepak Chopra in the local New Age shop in the high street.


And as I also stated clearly in my post, 'the intellectual rigour of the major monotheistic faiths, Hinduism and the philosophy of Buddhism' - I don't see a zealous convert to Christianity deciding that they'll have a little bit of Manichaeism, some cult of Serapis, a touch of late Zoroastrianism and a smidgeon of Neoplatonism to go with their mini-pyramid and rock crystals and sign of the fish.

One famous convert from Manichaeism, St Augustine of Hippo, completely rejected his earlier faith, campaigning against it vigorously.

My sense is also that most religious tradition have had their share of kitsch, whether in art or in ritual.

Show me the New Age equivalent of the Sistine Chapel, the friezes in the Alhambra, the Book of Durrow, the Oratorios of Bach or even for that matter, the writings of Aquinas, Ibn Sina or Moses Maimonides.

Somewhat more intellectual rigour in one page of Aquinas than I've seen in all the chanting, crystal hugging pyramid dwelling New Age Aquarian gobbledegook.

Kitsch tends to come later on as art forms are cheapened and debased- the New Age rot we have to endure would appear to have begun in kitsch and simply deteriorated.

One of the more interesting discoveries in art history, IIUC, is that ancient Greek statues were painted, and that our Renaissance and post-Ren view of them is impacted by the accident that all the paint had chipped off.

The statues were not the only painted items, so were the temples and other buildings.

Our view of places such as the Alhambra is coloured by the mistaken admiration for the supposedly austere beauty of the Parthenon and even Romanesque and Gothic cathedrals, which would have been ablaze with wall paintings, costly textiles and richly decorated surfaces.

Even the Romans managed to manufacture coloured concrete- an art seemingly lost on many modern architects and builders unfortunately.

[Ramo]

I suspect the fact that he will indeed get elected says more about the anything but a repug than anything else.

That doesn't explain why he had the support of gay and Jewish groups in the community for the very competitive primary.

It's worth noting that he campaigned not on his race or religion, but as the next coming of a Jewish politician (though he probably won't be able to live up to Wellstone's accomplishments). Certainly not the profile of this "hate whitey" charicature that you have of him.

A point that needs to be examined considering his lackof support for gay marriage (in keeping with his historical "supposedly defunct" ties to Nation of Islam).

That's absurd. The vast majority of politicians don't support gay marriage, period. The only two Republicans with any national stature that I can think of, who do are Chafee (who was almost primaried out of seat, and only saved through millions spent by the national party because he's the only kind of Republican who can win in RI) and Bloomberg (who ran as a Republican only because the Democratic field was too crowded).

But it's worth noting that Ellis opposes the Bigot Amendment. From his web site:

Would a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage help us to welcome the stranger, clothe the naked, heal the sick, or visit those in prison?

So if Ellis is characteristic of the NoI, the GOP is significantly more hateful than the NoI.