"America's Mayor" in some deep, deep doo-doo...

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat


Lack of direct structural damage has no bearing on coating and surface exposure to toxic and other hazardous materials on the buildings and their surroundings, or on continuous exposure in the local air to a number of things, including contaminants kicked up and recirculated by the nearby cleanup, demolition and removal activity.

Im not questioning that there were hazards. What im saying is that those hazards were borne by the workers who returned to normal work in those buildings, including white collar and professional workers, NOT by blue collar clean up crews, who werent going into those buildings. Now there was also exposure for the clean up workers, but that was NOT related to reopening the undamaged buildings.

Im not arguing as to whether what was done was responsible or not - Im merely saying I dont think it has quite the class overtones youre implying (now if you want to discuss the class differences between white collar workers, including finance professionals, and NYC office building owners, that would be another thing)

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat


You must have a nice, white-color job that never puts you in contact with hazardous materials. What should have been done was to make sure workers had proper respirators, environmental suits if needed, and that adequeate dust control, washdown, and containment procedures were in place as needed for each specific site. In other words, safety and sound construction, demolition and hazmat containment practices should have dictated the pace, not property owner's greed.

Actually on the floor most every day in a chemical plant and have done more than my fair share of vessel entry, haz material response including donning the level A hazmat suits. Likewise I have had the dubious distinction of incident command for at least 10 years including all requisite yearly training.

Don't lecture me on proper response I have lived it all my professional life.

[DanS]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
How many lives (dead or disabled) was it worth?

I don't know. What's your answer to that question, wiseguy?

[SlowwHand]

Michael, it's more than economic convenience. I would be willing to bet that had the question been posed of businesses in the area, "Close down for an undetermined time or take the chance", they might have shut down for...2 days. Their financial obgligations don't just go On Hold. And it's not them. It's the same ripple effect of sending manufacturing overseas, or whatever. It doesn't end. One business impacts others.

The simple fact is, the pooch was going to be screwed, no matter which position. I don't think anyone thought that towers collapsing was it, The End. If they did they were foolish.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
Actually on the floor most every day in a chemical plant and have done more than my fair share of vessel entry, haz material response including donning the level A hazmat suits. Likewise I have had the dubious distinction of incident command for at least 10 years including all requisite yearly training.

Don't lecture me on proper response I have lived it all my professional life.

IOW: I am an industry expert, doofus. It's what I do for a living.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
Don't lecture me on proper response I have lived it all my professional life.

This part of your post: "there might be some smoke that might make it hard to breathe. Wimps the lot of them..." doesn't exactly convey that.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

The media has always had a hardon for chemophobia.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
Michael, it's more than economic convenience. I would be willing to bet that had the question been posed of businesses in the area, "Close down for an undetermined time or take the chance", they might have shut down for...2 days. Their financial obgligations don't just go On Hold. And it's not them. It's the same ripple effect of sending manufacturing overseas, or whatever. It doesn't end. One business impacts others.

If they were going to do that anyway, then why sugarcoat and conceal the risks? Wrt their financial obligations, etc., that's what Federal disaster relief money is for, what business interruption insurance is for, and worst case, what bankruptcy is for. You take a "routine" fire of a commercial site that involves toxic materials, and neighboring businesses are shut down for a period of time, or permanently, on a regular basis. Buildings are condemned by fire inspectors, etc., all over the country all the time. The economic impacts on tenants, residents and workers is not generally a factor.

The simple fact is, the pooch was going to be screwed, no matter which position. I don't think anyone thought that towers collapsing was it, The End. If they did they were foolish.

Nice way of evading the point. If the health, fire, environmental and executive government authorities took shortcuts and then misrepresented the risk, that's no quite the same as someone naively thinking that "the towers collapsing was it, The End."

But hey, there's a war on, with somebody, right? More grist for the mill, and they should have expected it.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
The media has always had a hardon for chemophobia.

Seems like a lot of purty sick people are showing up on the doorsteps. Might be a bit more than media stupidity going on. They're idiots regarding virtually every field, especially anything with technical nuances, but sometimes they luck onto a useful fact or two, even if they don't know what to do with it.

[SlowwHand]

I'm saying, I don't think it was known, for sure. I have a hard time believing Bush and and "America's Mayor" knew all and went there repeadedly, just in order to pull the wool over everyone's eyes.

Anything said today, should have been said 5 years ago.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Apparently, it was said five years ago, but the memos got whitewashed up the chain of command. Did Bush or Giuliani directly have anything to do with it? Not a chance, it's not their field of expertise, and they're not micromanagers. They do have executive responsibility and they are responsible for their staff, including the "culture" wherein the staff knows what results the boss wants to achieve.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat


If they were going to do that anyway, then why sugarcoat and conceal the risks? Wrt their financial obligations, etc., that's what Federal disaster relief money is for, what business interruption insurance is for, and worst case, what bankruptcy is for. You take a "routine" fire of a commercial site that involves toxic materials, and neighboring businesses are shut down for a period of time, or permanently, on a regular basis. Buildings are condemned by fire inspectors, etc., all over the country all the time. The economic impacts on tenants, residents and workers is not generally a factor.

Commerical meaning warehouses that hold pool chemicals or the like. Given the inventory of haz materials in the twin towers I'ld guess what we are talking about are mostly normal combustion by products not the more nasty chlorinated and cyanide by products.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat


Seems like a lot of purty sick people are showing up on the doorsteps. Might be a bit more than media stupidity going on. They're idiots regarding virtually every field, especially anything with technical nuances, but sometimes they luck onto a useful fact or two, even if they don't know what to do with it.

EPA's is as dumb as a box of rocks too generally when it comes to these things.

AS for the purty sick people funny how these things get traction once the rumor was being spread from day zero about how bad air quality was.

"Cough cough' think I need the day off.

[DRoseDARs]

Thank you Ming. I was pretty suprised that Sikander went at it like that but whatever, to each their own... until you say, "Chill."

And always nice to have MtG taking a similar position (though much more eloquently stated) to one's self.

[MRT144]

i like spitzer anyway