US versus European Cities

[Dinner]

I note that I proposed a happy medium between no taxation and excess taxation.

[Pekka]

Well, you can find decent parties at most Euro cities every single night. Of course it depends what you're after though, but if you're into electronic music, you'll most likely find some nice bumping parties anywhere you are.

Otherwise, it depends where you are, the transportation etc.. it certainly could be cheaper in lots of cities. Usually, the cities are built the way I like it, which is clear city structure. I don't lke LA style structure at all. I think it sucks terribly, you have to get a car to get into places and it mostly looks the same where ever you are. So no, I don't like that structure, of course LA is an exception since Cali area is pretty nice and I could see myself living there very easily. Just not in LA. But it's filled with nice little places, California that is, and it's excellent.

When it comes to cities though, I still think that NY beats every other city in most aspects.. it's pretty unbeatable in my books. The standards of Euro cities can vary, you can find some real crapholes, or you can find nice cities, I don't think we have a standard where we can say every city is nice. Few cities are nice, but thne again we have diversity in the cities, and you can go to very different places with a few hour plane thing, so in that regard I think Europe pretty much pwns everyone else. You can get around fast to everywhere. And it's very different.

I would rate SF high too, it was nice.

The only negative thing I'd give is the overall attitude to parties, they should be more European style. You know, have fun, let's party, get your boobs out and blast some music, everyone is welcome. The club scene is greatly better. Many places in US seems to be revolving around bars, when you could be having BOTH!

SOmething to think about.

[Spiffor]

I've spent most of my life in Paris' suburbs (fairly close to Paris).

The Metro is excellent, as long as you want to go to Paris-centre. However, if you want to go to another suburbs, it's terrible. For example, I often have to go to the city of Ivry in my district, 10-15 km from home. Using the car, it lasts roughly 15 minutes. Using the subway, it lasts an hour, which is only half of the time I take when I go there by feet.

This lack of inter-suburbs transportation is a well known problem, which has increased in recent years, as more and more activity is located in the suburbs. Especially, many businesses are located in the remote suburbs, where land is still cheap. To go to these places, the mass-transit is terrible (but at least it does exist).

I have spent most of my life in my suburbian hometown. It's something like 3 km² for 30,000 inhabs, i.e a fairly dense residential town.
I have all the services I need at walking distance: kindergarten to senior highschool, small supermarkets ("superettes"), haircutters, various grocers, bakers, butchers etc. There's also one movie theatre and one bar where young people go. And the connection with the subway. All within 15 minutes of walk. I love this aspect.

However, not all suburbians live with so many services close by. Those who live in faraway suburbs have to take their car for anything, just like the Americans. Those who live in the ghetto (those that rioted almost a year ago) tend to have fewer services close by, and often are far from the subway. The neighbouring city's ghetto is more than 30 minutes away by feet from the closest metro.


I have little experience of American cities. Basically, I've spent a week in the LA suburbs, and a week in San Diego. I have strongly disliked the fact that, without a car, a suburbian is basically a cripple. I've never felt like that in any of the European cities I've lived in (Bordeaux' suburbs, Stuttgart-centre, Stuttgart-suburbs).
However, I really liked the fact that traffic seemed civilized. Californian drivers seem to behave themselves in comparison to the French ones, and finding one's path is very easy in the crystal-clear grid.
It also seems that most Americans can enjoy a much more spacious personal sphere than the average European. This sure is good news.

[atawa]

I think the outcomes would have been different when comparing continental european and north-american cities.

I for one loved montreal

[DanS]

Thanks, Spiff. Very informative. When did you visit LA and San Diego? It must have been recently, because when we talked in Paris, you said (I think) that you hadn't been to the US.

The relatively friendly drivers are probably due to the fact that uniformly, the US has excellent infrastructure to facilitate driving. The downside is that you are expected to drive in most areas. Mostly, as a practical matter, this is no big deal. But children, the elderly, the incapacitated, and the very very poor find it tough to get around. I view this as a technological problem, however, rather than a problem inherent in the mode of transportation (cars will soon drive themselves, more or less).

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by DanS
Thanks, Spiff. Very informative. When did you visit LA and San Diego? It must have been recently, because when we talked in Paris, you said (I think) that you hadn't been to the US.

No, not so recently. It was something like 1999.
IIRC, I said that I didn't want to go back to the US, but that's because I dislike the surveillance measures at the border

The relatively friendly drivers are probably due to the fact that uniformly, the US has excellent infrastructure to facilitate driving.

Yup, that's a huge difference with France. Even in relatively smallscale streets, it's not rare to see 2+2 lines in the US. Only the main urban roads are like that in France, and sometimes they're even smaller.

[DanS]

Originally posted by Spiffor
No, not so recently. It was something like 1999.
IIRC, I said that I didn't want to go back to the US, but that's because I dislike the surveillance measures at the border

Thanks for the clarification.

Yup, that's a huge difference with France. Even in relatively smallscale streets, it's not rare to see 2+2 lines in the US. Only the main urban roads are like that in France, and sometimes they're even smaller.

No, certainly not rare at all. Most US cities were designed after 1+1 became impractical.

[Dis]

2 + 2?

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by Dis
2 + 2?

4 lanes total, 2 in each direction

[Dis]

anything less than 3 + 3 (and a center turning lane) in my city creats a huge traffic jam.

[Datajack Franit]

[Kuciwalker]

US drivers, US roads

[Dis]

you haven't seen the drivers here in the southwest. crazy. Everyone is always in a hurry to get somewhere. They drive like maniacs.

California drivers are the worst. And now they all live in my city.

[Jon Miller]

DC Metro is also focused on Downtown DC, with spokes to the Suburbs.. with no wheel. They have been talking about a new line, which would form part of the wheel, for years now (over a decade?).

JM

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
US drivers, US roads

You evidently have never been out of your own country - US drivers are some of the worst I've had the mispleasure of experiencing in a developed country...

In America there is this weird phenomenon that I've never encountered anywhere else where people constantly seem to use the fast lane as just another lane where they can drive at the same speed as the cars in the slow lane - especially in parallel to each other, probably cos everyone has their cars set to 55 on cruise control!

That is just the biggest bugbear in a whole list of frustrations on American roads!

US roads are though, as long as you don't have to share them with the above mentioned US drivers.

As for cities, European ones are far better IMO. Except maybe French ones where you have to dodge the dog**** on the pavements - or even indoors! My g/f let her guard down last week when she assumed she was safe walking around inside a tourist office...

But apart from that, European cities win hands down on public transport, history, lifestyle etc. The only major downside is probably expense compared to the US, but that depends on which country you're visiting.

Probably the biggest thing to blight US cities apart from generally crap public transport is their homogeneity - you can literally go across the country and the cities are same, same, same...

Having said that, I did particularly like the strong individual characters of Boston and New Orleans.