Is depression a disease? Is it more prevalent today?

[Lorizael]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
ISTR at least one study that said depressives are in fact BETTER at predicting future events than "normal"people. Health is, in some ways, an unrealistic optimism - however its an optimism that actually leads to better life outcomes anyway, since depressives overreact to their "realistic" forecasts.

My own anecdotal experiences can confirm this, but I've spent this whole thread railing against anecdotes and life experiences, so I'm not inclined to add anything further.

[Meticulous Man]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
The real problem is thinking like this:

A. I am screwed up cause Im stupid, lazy, and dislikeable, and I have zero control over what is happening within my mind or in my environment or my brain. I am unable to achieve the status that is desirable of a person in my society and I am thus inferior. Nothing, not changing my life, not taking a med,not talk therapy, NOTHING will work. Ergo I will either kill myself, lie in bed all day, or just go through the motions of life.

Which needs to be replaced by

I suffer from depression a treatable mental illness. The chemical imbalances associated with it, the negative ways of thinking and feeling, and the bad things that happen to me are a vicious circle, and it doesnt really matter which came first, what matters is getting out of the cycle. I will deal with the depression by changing my world-view, by disposing of some of my previously held views and by adopting new ones that are more in accordance with reality. I will do this with the help of both an experienced good therapist, who will help me develop better habits of thought, and with the help of medication, which will help give me the strength to achieve this.

Sounds good, I could have said this too. Whether depressive symptoms should be classified as a mental illness or not, though, is not really one of the most important issues that a person suffering from them faces. And I, of course, don't reject medication or therapy, but it is eventually up to the patient to draw any insight from them.

ISTR at least one study that said depressives are in fact BETTER at predicting future events than "normal"people. Health is, in some ways, an unrealistic optimism - however its an optimism that actually leads to better life outcomes anyway, since depressives overreact to their "realistic" forecasts.

I don't know the study so I can't comment on it. But I think that a depressed person often fails to see possibilities where they actually exist, and could do with a bit of realism in this regard.

[NeOmega]

Originally posted by Aivo½so
Could it be that the heart of the problem lies here? Imagine two sets of attitudes:

A: I am depressed because I have a chemical imbalance in my brain which makes that it doesn't think the right thoughts, and I have zero control over what is happening within my mind or in my environment. Because of the abnormal structure of my brain, I am unable to achieve the status that is desirable of a person in my society and I am thus inferior.

B: I feel emotional pain which stems from my lacking understanding of myself and other people. By changing my world-view, by disposing of some of my previously held views and by adopting new ones that are more in accordance with reality, I can develop as a person and conquer emotional pain. I might not be the most intelligent or powerful person to walk the earth, but I'm aware that there exists no objective way of measuring the worth of anyone's life, and nobody can claim the right to put prices on people's lives.

Wouldn't you think that a depressive person is more likely to display attitude A and a healthy person, B? IMO, the problem is how to combat ways of thinking resembling A both on individual and social level. What do you think?

Very nice.

A. I am screwed up cause Im stupid, lazy, and dislikeable, and I have zero control over what is happening within my mind or in my environment or my brain. I am unable to achieve the status that is desirable of a person in my society and I am thus inferior. Nothing, not changing my life, not taking a med,not talk therapy, NOTHING will work. Ergo I will either kill myself, lie in bed all day, or just go through the motions of life.

Which needsto be replaced by

I suffer from depression a treatable mental illness. The chemical imbalances associated with it, the negative ways of thinking and feeling, and the bad things that happen to me are a vicious circle, and it doesnt really matter which came first, what matters is getting out of the cycle. I will deal with the depression by changing my world-view, by disposing of some of my previously held views and by adopting new ones that are more in accordance with reality. I will do this with the help of both an experienced good therapist, who will help me develop better habits of thought, and with the help of medication, which will help give me the strength to achieve this.

no, it needs to be replaced by


B: I feel emotional pain which stems from my lacking understanding of myself and other people. By changing my world-view, by disposing of some of my previously held views and by adopting new ones that are more in accordance with reality, I can develop as a person and conquer emotional pain. I might not be the most intelligent or powerful person to walk the earth, but I'm aware that there exists no objective way of measuring the worth of anyone's life, and nobody can claim the right to put prices on people's lives.

[Blaupanzer]

So, we are in agreement. Depression is not a medically definable disease, e.g., with externally measured indicators. However, it is an illness. It's cure is to adopt a different spiral of thinking than the "I am a loser" cycle. Certain meds may assist in kick starting that change in cycle, but some therapy is necessary to assist the depressed in redefining what he/she is and what the events in his/her life mean.

Scasz makes his argument "not a disease" on behalf of patients that are involuntarily committed to mental institutions. (Hence the Auschwitz reference -- involuntary commitment for life of a person who is not sick.

Fine, we don't need the word "disease." We can treat depression as a condition, a genetic disorder, an illness, whatever. The point is depression exists, it can be treated, and if it isn't treated, it can be fatal.

Incidentally 100 years ago people suffering various of these mental conditions were locked in the attic, or in a special room, or in an institution chained to the wall. Earlier, they were either treated as obscure prophets or burned as witches -- people who had lost their souls. This probably goes all the way back to the caveman, where the weak would be kicked around but not necessarily abandoned, or they might be left behind when the tribe migrated.

Whether big Pharma has too big a stake in pushing these meds or not, the meds do help some folk.

[Lorizael]

Your proposal is much too reasonable for NeOmega to accept, Blaupanzer.

[NeOmega]

Originally posted by Blaupanzer
Whether big Pharma has too big a stake in pushing these meds or not, the meds do help some folk.

and hooks many, many more.

[Lorizael]

You used the word 'and', which means that you believe the former part of that phrase to be true as well. So, you admit that antidepressants can, in fact, help people. And you say that they are addicting, and that this is bad.

So, how do you feel about chemotherapy? Good stuff. Cures cancer and all that. Horrible horrible side effects. Can cause conditions that are worse than some diseases. Not to be used on old and fragile people. But still really, really good at doing that cancer fighting thing.

Antidepressants do... what? They gave me headaches from time to time and made my girlfriend slightly frustrated when it concerned certain activities.... But other than that... what?

[Elok]

They occasionally give me cotton-mouth, I think. I'm not sexually active but the equipment down there seems to work fine (it "rises to the occasion"), and I only get headaches from staring at monitors and such too long. That's it, some dry-mouth. Prozac's not even all that expensive now that it's gone generic.

Now, Wellbutrin, that crap gave me a seizure. I do not suggest the use of Wellbutrin...

[NeOmega]

Originally posted by Lorizael
Antidepressants do... what? They gave me headaches from time to time and made my girlfriend slightly frustrated when it concerned certain activities.... But other than that... what?

night sweats, suicide..... but I already mentioned the main drawback... they don't allow people to change... build character etc... And girls on antidepressants also can suffer lack of libido. Girls, lack of libido... bad thing.

Apathy.

I know so, so many people on meds for depression. Two of them are on lithium, and have been for decades. And when I see a 45 year old man, and his mother, still living together, sometimes I wonder, what if he went out, and took a couple emotional whallops on the chin like a man?

Another one has been on them for years, is still depressed, and still can be quite mean, very judgemental, and still, at over 50, very confused about some aspects of life. She has had her kids on anti depressants since they were both in middle school. I don't think either needed it. I know one didn't.

The other developed cancer at age 18. Could have been the cocktail of meds, could have been the tweak and coke, could have been genetic. Would he have been so loose with dangerous drugs at age 16, if his mother had not encouraged drug use to solve emotional problems?

[Lorizael]

Sigh, NeOmega...

Any facts to back up the claim that antidepressants don't allow people to change and cause apathy?

[lord of the mark]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by NeOmega

night sweats, suicide..... but I already mentioned the main drawback... they don't allow people to change... build character etc..

Absolute BS. People on SSRIs and in therapy can certainly change and build character, and many do.

Apathy.

I know so, so many people on meds for depression. Two of them are on lithium, and have been for decades. And when I see a 45 year old man, and his mother, still living together, sometimes I wonder, what if he went out, and took a couple emotional whallops on the chin like a man?

Lithium is mainly prescribed for bipolar, and works rather differently from SSRIs. Its pretty serious stuff, IIUC.

Another one has been on them for years, is still depressed, and still can be quite mean, very judgemental, and still, at over 50, very confused about some aspects of life. She has had her kids on anti depressants since they were both in middle school. I don't think either needed it. I know one didn't.

So you admit some need it?

The other developed cancer at age 18. Could have been the cocktail of meds, could have been the tweak and coke, could have been genetic. Would he have been so loose with dangerous drugs at age 16, if his mother had not encouraged drug use to solve emotional problems?

Actually theres a school of thought that coke and other drug use is folks self medicating for depression. Since there are plenty of folks who take SSRIs and never take illegal drugs, and plenty who DONT take SSRIs and who do take illegal drugs, Im skeptical of the assertion that prescription of SSRIs leads to becoming a cokehead.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by NeOmega
And when I see a 45 year old man, and his mother, still living together, sometimes I wonder, what if he went out, and took a couple emotional whallops on the chin like a man?

see heres the real problem - you tend to say, what if the person went out and did X, instead of taking meds. But the problem is, denying them meds doesnt get them to do X. When youre really depressed you DONT do X, even though X will help. Either you just cant do X, or you convince yourself X wont help, or you dont deserve X, or X will lead to something terrible or whatever. And some book, or the words of someone who isnt serious about your condition, do NOT persuade you otherwise. Thats why depression is such a bear, such a difficult thing to fight off - Churchill called it his "black dog". If you havent either A. Had it or B. Been a therapist to people whove had it, I dont think you can really understand what it involves.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by NeOmega
night sweats, suicide..... but I already mentioned the main drawback... they don't allow people to change... build character etc...

It is amazing how wrong you are.

In this very forum, we have a poster who changed his woldview, who became cheerful, who took his life in his own hands, very recently.

He had suffered for years from chronical depression, and was under medication.

[NeOmega]

Originally posted by Lorizael
Sigh, NeOmega...

Any facts to back up the claim that antidepressants don't allow people to change and cause apathy?

nope, just anecdotal. Sorry I offended you all.

Bye.

[Elok]

Originally posted by Spiffor

It is amazing how wrong you are.

In this very forum, we have a poster who changed his woldview, who became cheerful, who took his life in his own hands, very recently.

He had suffered for years from chronical depression, and was under medication.

Who are you referring to? I assume it's not me; I changed too long ago to call it "very recently." Around the time I graduated HS back in 2001. But the SSRIs did remarkable things all the same. They didn't instantly make my life perfect, but they gave me the fighting chance I needed.

Well, Neo seems to have sorta-kinda given in anyway, so I guess it's moot.