Is depression a disease? Is it more prevalent today?

[NeOmega]

Originally posted by MRT144


anyway, since you categorically reject drugs, talk therapy......

wtf? When did I say I reject talk therapy? Could you find me a quote on that?

[Lorizael]

Originally posted by NeOmega
wtf? When did I say I reject talk therapy? Could you find me a quote on that?

Originally posted by NeOmega
...I reject talk therapy...

[Darius871]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
The mistakes that people make that cause the stress that leads to depressions include everything from taking the wrong job to entering the wrong relationship.

If you have a book that tells you what decisions in life are going to prove disastrous, Id like a copy.

That assumes outright that mere stress is the main cause of depression, which I don't buy considering the lower suicide rates in LDCs, and the study posted above finding people in LDCs are 'happier' by and large. Can you seriously claim that a few petty nuisances of Western life can even compare to the daily stresses of trying to survive in the third world? And if mere stress is such a smoking gun then how come depression and suicide are relatively common even among upper classes of the first world, considering their low-stress lifestyles?

Looking at the surprisingly low correlation between life stresses and depression, I'd contend a number of other factors are more responsible (as aforementioned, approaches to social relationships, physical environment, exercise, diet, spirituality, cognitive habits, etc. etc. etc.) These factors are all the result of personal choices, and anyone concerned enough about his/her mental health to educate him/herself about it can easily find out which choices are best for preventing depression, or at least for preventing depression's psychogenic precursors from developing into something physiological and deadly.

If someone doesn't care to educate him/herself about mental health before it's too late, well I have no more sympathy than I would for someone who has no clue that bacon cheeseburgers cause heart disease.

Originally posted by lord of the mark
BTW - its NOT always true that a leg up is all thats needed. Some folks, especially but not only bipolars, need medication indefinitely.

I'm only talking about major depression, and since bipolar disorder has a completely different (and permanent) physiological basis it seems like a red herring to me. But no, I don't buy that anyone needs medication all the way to the grave. Just my humble, subjective, non-verifiable, non-falsifiable opinion though, could be wrong.

Originally posted by lord of the mark
I also suspect that for every person whos on meds who shouldnt be, theres at least one who should be but isnt, cause of costs, stigma etc.

Sure, but not for long when it comes to stigmas. The culture of victimhood only gets stronger with each passing year.

[Lorizael]

Originally posted by Darius871
These factors are all the result of personal choices, and anyone concerned enough about his/her mental health to educate him/herself about it can easily find out which choices are best for preventing depression, or at least for preventing depression's psychogenic precursors from developing into something physiological.

If someone doesn't care to educate him/herself about mental health before it's too late, well I have no more sympathy than I would for someone who has no clue that bacon cheeseburgers cause heart disease.

The depression rates amongst teenagers are quite high. While NeOmega rejects this and believes teenagers are just going through their angsty period, most studies would seem to indicate otherwise.

Can it be reasonably expected that a teenager - or even a preteen (my "depression" began at the end of middle school) - should have the wherewithal and reasoning to understand what actions of theirs will, in the long run, lead to the negative physiological effects of depression?

[lord of the mark]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Darius871

That assumes outright that mere stress is the main cause of depression, which I don't buy considering the lower suicide rates in LDCs, and the study posted above finding people in LDCs are 'happier' by and large. Can you seriously claim that a few petty nuisances of Western life can even compare to the daily stresses of trying to survive in the third world? And if mere stress is such a smoking gun then how come depression and suicide are relatively common even among upper classes of the first world, given their low-stress lifestyles?

Looking at the surprisingly low correlation between life stresses and depression, I'd contend a number of other factors are more responsible (as aforementioned, approaches to social relationships, physical environment, exercise, diet, spirituality, irrational cognitive habits, etc. etc. etc.) These factors are all the result of personal choices, and anyone concerned enough about his/her mental health to educate him/herself about it can easily find out which choices are best for preventing depression, or at least for preventing depression's psychogenic precursors from developing into something physiological.

If someone doesn't care to educate him/herself about mental health before it's too late, well I have no more sympathy than I would for someone who has no clue that bacon cheeseburgers cause heart disease.

you are confusing the factors that determine the levels of depression across different societies, with the actual choices that trigger depression in an individual.

LDCs - first, im not sure i buy the low depression level, it may just be a question of underdiagnosis. To the extend its real, I suspect its because of broad social difference, having to do with things like broader social networks, including extended families, village support networks, etc. The fact that stress is absorbed by such networks in an LDC does NOT mean that the difference between a person who develops depression in a developed country, and one who does not, is decisions theyve made about families. In fact its almost impossible, at least in the US, to replicate the social support networks youd find in the rural areas of an LDC. Thats ok for most people, cause either A. Theyre genetically less inclined to depression or B. They manage to avoid the stress related triggers.

Second, to the extent that its possible to make life choices that might aid in prevention of depression, is it always reasonable to expect such choices, in the absence of triggers. For example a person leaving college can choose a job in a city where they have an extensive support network, or they can choose a better, more exciting job elsewhere. Given that up that time theyve not experienced depression, and dont expect to experience severe stressors, and that their peer group favors the latter option, why would they choose the former. After all plenty of people make the latter choice, and do just fine. If, having moved to the new city, they DO encounter major stressors, they then suffer a depression, is it fair to fault them for what at the time seemed a perfectly reasonable choice? I think not.

Other than your LDC data, im not sure where youre getting the idea that theres little correlation between life stresses and depression. My understanding of the lit is that theres substantial relationship.

but not for long when it comes to stigmas. The culture of victimhood only gets stronger with each passing year.

This has nothing to do with victimhood.

[Darius871]

Sure, at that age I'd accept limited personal responsibility for the same reasons minors have limited culpability in court. I'd also support creation of educational programs (along the lines of D.A.R.E. and Sex Ed.) to make youths more aware of depression's warning signs and where to seek help, etc.

[lord of the mark]

again what i see is the expectation of linear relationships X leads to Y, where X is a stressor and Y is depression. End X, end Y. If only it were so simple. These are human beings, with complex biographies, and you cant understand the way the factors play out if you dont like at life stories.

[Darius871]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
LDCs - first, im not sure i buy the low depression level, it may just be a question of underdiagnosis.

I said suicide rates, not depression incidence. You don't diagnose suicide.

Originally posted by lord of the mark
To the extent its real, I suspect its because of broad social difference, having to do with things like broader social networks, including extended families, village support networks, etc. The fact that stress is absorbed by such networks in an LDC does NOT mean that the difference between a person who develops depression in a developed country, and one who does not, is decisions theyve made about families. In fact its almost impossible, at least in the US, to replicate the social support networks youd find in the rural areas of an LDC. Thats ok for most people, cause either A. Theyre genetically less inclined to depression or B. They manage to avoid the stress related triggers.

Second, to the extent that its possible to make life choices that might aid in prevention of depression, is it always reasonable to expect such choices, in the absence of triggers. For example a person leaving college can choose a job in a city where they have an extensive support network, or they can choose a better, more exciting job elsewhere. Given that up that time theyve not experienced depression, and dont expect to experience severe stressors, and that their peer group favors the latter option, why would they choose the former. After all plenty of people make the latter choice, and do just fine. If, having moved to the new city, they DO encounter major stressors, they then suffer a depression, is it fair to fault them for what at the time seemed a perfectly reasonable choice? I think not.

Well, I'm convinced. If you're correct that the extremely diverse social networks of the third world all tend to "absorb" huge life stresses better than anomic industrialized culture can absorb very minor ones, my entire line of reasoning would definitely fall apart. If it all does boil down to mere stress I agree there's no sure-fire way to avoid depression.

Originally posted by lord of the mark
This has nothing to do with victimhood.

I was only pointing out that the increasingly popular perception that depression sufferers are victims of a disease (whether right or wrong) will gradually eliminate the stigmas that make people avoid treatment. The perception should also end the cost issue, as private and public healthcare systems are more willing to pay for mental health treatments.

[lord of the mark]

You said
"That assumes outright that mere stress is the main cause of depression, which I don't buy considering the lower suicide rates in LDCs"

YOu really need to clarify whether youre talking suicide or depression. In point of fact most depressions DONT end in successful suicide, and most of those that do are bipolar depressions, IIUC. There are a number of factors at play from gun ownership to alcohol. Analyzing what impacts suicide is NOT the same as analysing what impacts depression.

I also think your distinction between major and minor stresses may be arbitrary. Humans are social creatures, and there lives are built on expectation, and cultural ways of dealing with things. Whos more stressed, a third worlder who sees two his ten children die in a society where thats common, or a first worlder who sees his onlychild die, in a society where thats rare? Someone who suffers day to day poverty, alongside all his friends, neighbors and relations, or someone who bears the shame of relative poverty none of his peers know. Again, it sounds to me like youre trying to regress suicides against GDP per capita, or something like that, not addressing human biography.

[lord of the mark]

"If it all does boil down to mere stress I agree there's no sure-fire way to avoid depression."

I did NOT say it ALL boils down to stress. There are clearly "prophylatic" measures that can be taken, its just that most of them dont look terribly compelling until AFTER youve suffered a depression.

Would you blame someone for getting poisoned from drinking choliform laden water, given that boiling it would have solved the problem? Do YOU boil your water, given your reasonable expectation theres nothing in it thats going to make you sick?

If everyone believed, from an early age, that depression was common, and was something that could be triggered by a wide variety of life events, and that its therefore wise to learn preventive techniques, that might well help (not everyone though) But as you see here, there are many who deny the widespreadness of depression, and who assert or imply its just self indulgent thinking, that anyone can will themselves out of if they only try. If it is so, why would anyone take the time to go to a library and take out "how to avoid depression" when there are so many more pleasant ways to spend the time?

[lord of the mark]

imagine a world in which people question if lung cancer was really a disease. In which it was claimed that treatment for lung cancer proceeded from "victimhood". In which it is claimed you can will yourself out of lung cancer. In which it said that lung cancer is an excuse, just laziness. In which few people are willing to share with any but their closet friends, and sometimes not even them, that they have lung cancer.

Now try to launch a teen anti-smoking campaign in such a world.

I would respectfully suggest that such a campaign would fail miserably.

[MRT144]

Originally posted by NeOmega


wtf? When did I say I reject talk therapy? Could you find me a quote on that?

so anything BUT drugs is okay for treating depression?

[Arrian]

Get ahold of yourself *smack*
Pull yourself together *whack*
[/Airplane]

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Darius871
Nonetheless, your viewpoint still points to sociocultural and psychogenic causes, not a physiological one.

True. I seriously believe that psychology and environment are very relevant to pretty much every depression.

And while medication helps many depressives, I think it's a fairly rare occurence when they are an absolute necessity for a cure.

That said, Just like many depressions can be overcome without meds, there are many physiological diseases the body can overcome without medication (cold, flu for example). Though medication aren't absolutely necessary for a cure, their use can be useful, and shouldn't be shunned.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Spiffor

True. I seriously believe that psychology and environment are very relevant to pretty much every depression.

And while medication helps many depressives, I think it's a fairly rare occurence when they are an absolute necessity for a cure.

Well, the data Ive seen on the failure rate of therapy would suggest otherwise. Just as there are depressions that dont respond to meds, there are some that dont respond to talk therapy. In fact 20% or so of depressions dont respond to ANYTHING, according to some studies.

Now I suppose you could posit all kinds of ideal conditions, etc that could cure almost any depression. That doesnt offer any real help to someone actually suffering a depression.

What someone has to deal with, in a depression, is what will work for them in their situation - a situation where they live where they live, where they likely have at BEST a good therapist, who they cant see more than once a week, with a family that is at best kinda sorta understanding of whats going on, etc, etc. With long habits of negative thinking, that are reinforced by the kinds of bad life events that the depression itself helps to bring on.

What theoretically COULD be achieved is meaningless, and can in fact be harmful. Getting out of depression means NOT thinking about what COULD be achieved if everything goes right - its about facing reality - INCLUDING the reality of how hard it is to beat depression.