The Middle East Continues...

[GePap]

Originally posted by Az

I guess the voices I hear from Lebanon are all Mossad agents, though. As to the polls, I've seen the people who've done the polls ( in Lebanon ), and I have no reason to accept their polls as legitimate.

I guess they are all mossad agents. Read the Arab press for five minutes then. The results shall be the same, the Arab masses back hizbullah pretty decisively.

WRT to people in the arab world you may be correct, but it remains irrelevant to the original question - this war certainly isn't anti-arab.

NO, it was anti-Hizbullah, but the IAF decided to bombs all of Lebanon for some reason...

Of course not, unless you estimate Lebanons entire infastructure at 3.5USD, or even close to that order of magnitude. Same with the 15 thousand families. It's nothing compared to what a full blown conventional war would do.

I don;t think that would be a bad estimate for the roads and bridges, which are the main things Israel bombed. And as for 15,000 families homeless, from what I have read in the Lebanese press (Mainly Daily Star), the level of population displacement was greater than during the civil war and Israel's 1982 invasion, which WERE full blown conventional war.

that would be right if we controlled southern Lebanon for 18 years. But we didn't - We controlled a stretch of land along the border, that btw surved it's main purpose - the prevention of land intrusions and attacks on civilians - as were the case prior to 82.

The IDF could not clear the strip you held for 18 years. You honestly think that if you had held the land all the way up to the Litani that would make a difference? Under what circumstances? And as for stating that that strip of land prevented attacks on civilians, what is it exactly that the Grapes of Wrath operation in '96 was launched for? Last time I checked rockets can be used to attack civilians.

How is that anything like a solution?

Lets see:

It removes the incentive of Syria to act as a middle man and to help arm Hizbullah
It removes the excuses Hizbullah has given for its need to remain the resistance

As far as I can tell, its far closer to a solution than anything you seem to advocate (which appears at this point mainly more war)

Was this an example of answering the question?

I just founhd calls for intellectual integrity following your statements ironic.

[GePap]

Originally posted by BlackCat


And that is a very reasonable demand, but I seriously doubt that that is the goal of IDF actions - that is to destroy hizb capability to make missile attacks primarily, and decimate hizb foot soldiers secondarily. Then Ãt's up to UN and LG "police" to disarm the remaining.

I don't consider IDF to be idiots, so they clearly doesn't have the job of disarming hisb, just to clip their nails.

Then explain Olmerts and Peretz and Halutz statements in the first few hours and days of the war.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by GePap


Actually, those are Hizbullah's demands. So unless you can come up with anything to show that Hizbullah would not want to have its demands met, I call bull.

Ehrm, how does that contradict what I said ?

[GePap]

Originally posted by BlackCat


Ehrm, how does that contradict what I said ?

Can you show any proof that Hizbullah would actively undermined moves to achieve its own stated goals?

Because that is what you claimed would happen.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by GePap
It removes the incentive of Syria to act as a middle man and to help arm Hizbullah
It removes the excuses Hizbullah has given for its need to remain the resistance

You have a point here - if these reasons are removed, then they are forced to use the main reason - destruction of israel. It is quite rediciuosly to claim that the sheeba farms are the only reason why hizb is attacking israel - that is only a cover to make typically european opinion appeased.

[GePap]

Originally posted by BlackCat


You have a point here - if these reasons are removed, then they are forced to use the main reason - destruction of israel. It is quite rediciuosly to claim that the sheeba farms are the only reason why hizb is attacking israel - that is only a cover to make typically european opinion appeased.

Sorry to break it to you, but "the destruction of Israel" has never been the main reaosn for Hizbullah's existance. If you think so, then I can only waste my time discussing with you.

People used to say the same stupid things about the Egyptians back in the 1970's And then peace was negotiated. People like you were wrong back in the 1970's, and they are wrong today.

I guess the only hope is like, just in the '70's, people like you will finally be ignored and sensible actions towards peace will be taken. But that does not seem to be the current state of affairs, sadly.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by GePap


Hmm... let the UN occupy the Sheeba farms and draw a final deal on all Lebanese prisoners vis a vi the Israeli soldiers held in Lebanon, then re-start final peace negotiations with Syria to draw up a final peace agreement with them?

How is that for an 'option C'?

Out of curiosity, would you favour the release of a person or people convicted by American courts of murders of American civilians if their release were demanded by an enemy for peace?

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by GePap


Can you show any proof that Hizbullah would actively undermined moves to achieve its own stated goals?

Because that is what you claimed would happen.

Are you serious ? Do you really think that hizb has build up their military power just to liberate those farms ? And that they will gladly disarm if the area are returned to the righteous owner (wich btw isn't excatly clear).

I really don't care what hizb claim is their goal because I it would probably be false (ok, if they claim that their goal is israels total destruction, then I will belive them).

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by GePap
Sorry to break it to you, but "the destruction of Israel" has never been the main reaosn for Hizbullah's existance. If you think so, then I can only waste my time discussing with you.

Oh, then please enlighten me about the real purpose of hizbollah.

[GePap]

Originally posted by notyoueither


Out of curiosity, would you favour the release of a person or people convicted by American courts of murders of American civilians if their release were demanded by an enemy for peace?

As part of a comperehensive peace deal? YES.

Punishment is not a goal in and of itself. Its is a means. A comprehensive peace deal is far more valuable to a society than keeping prisoners in your own prisons.

I would not be stupid or vulgar enough to perpetuate general insecurity of the population as a whole to satisfy some atavistic desire for "punishment."

[GePap]

Originally posted by BlackCat


Oh, then please enlighten me about the real purpose of hizbollah.

You can enlighten yourself. There is more than enough well researched material out there for you to read. I assume if I could find and read it, you might too. I am not going to undertake hopeless missions.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by GePap
People used to say the same stupid things about the Egyptians back in the 1970's And then peace was negotiated. People like you were wrong back in the 1970's, and they are wrong today.

I guess the only hope is like, just in the '70's, people like you will finally be ignored and sensible actions towards peace will be taken. But that does not seem to be the current state of affairs, sadly.

I'm stunned - either you are making a big fat troll or you are seriously drunk - not just a couple of bottles of red wine - more like a couple of bottles of vodka.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by GePap


You can enlighten yourself. There is more than enough well researched material out there for you to read. I assume if I could find and read it, you might too. I am not going to undertake hopeless missions.

I consider myself pretty enligthened and don't know about any proof that supports your pow - that is proof that makes sense.

[RGBVideo]

off-topic

People used to say the same stupid things about the Egyptians back in the 1970's And then peace was negotiated. People like you were wrong back in the 1970's, and they are wrong today.

I guess the only hope is like, just in the '70's, people like you will finally be ignored and sensible actions towards peace will be taken. But that does not seem to be the current state of affairs, sadly.

I'm stunned - either you are making a big fat troll or you are seriously drunk - not just a couple of bottles of red wine - more like a couple of bottles of vodka.

Wow. An enlightening, constructive and an idealistic (in a good way, not naïve) reply to your "hizbollah wants kill israeli babies because they're evil duh" -post, written by a Political Science graduate of a major US university about the political situation of the Middle East gets countered by a post consisting of nothing but an ad hominem -attack. It's followed by:

I consider myself pretty enligthened and don't know about any proof that supports your pow - that is proof that makes sense.

a post which consists of (a) public mental masturbation; (b) another ad hominem attack.


You're wasting your time here, Gepap. I hope you keep posting on OTF about International Relations though, your posts have offered me important viewpoints I haven't known about during some conflicts.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by VJ

Wow. An enlightening, constructive and an idealistic (in a good way, not naïve) reply to your "hizbollah wants kill israeli babies because they're evil duh" -post, written by a Political Science graduate of a major US university about the political situation of the Middle East gets countered by a post consisting of nothing but an ad hominem -attack. It's followed by:

Are you saying that GP is the only source of truth and that we all shall bow to his eternal knowledgede ? Especially when GP's comment doesn't make much sense ?

a post which consists of (a) public mental masturbation; (b) another ad hominem attack.

Oh, GP says that I should keep up with current news and I claim that I am - shocking - I dare to disagree with GP on my enlightenment - horror.

You're wasting your time here, Gepap. I hope you keep posting on OTF about International Relations though, your posts have offered me important viewpoints I haven't known about during some conflicts.

VJ, why don't you dare to make your own point of view ? Why do you need to suck up to GP and kiss his ass ?

GP has many good points, but he isn't the well of truth (I think that he seriously don't wan't such a label) - he has his pow's and others has their.