The Middle East Continues...

[Az]

Nice strawman

What submission? is UNSC resolution 1559 'arabic submission'?

What Arabs? The vast majority of arabs, and a majority of Lebanon's population are anti-Hizbullah.

No need to reduce the country into rubble. Neither did we do that now. What has to be done is the conquest and the cleansing of all armaments from S. Lebanon, and then, the replacement of them with the lebanese army, and the disarmament of the Hizbullah, again, as per UNSC resolution 1559.

Now, I am not claiming the UNSC is any source of moral authority. But from people referring to UNSC resolution over and over in their debates, I think a little bit of intellectual integrity would be a refreshing change.

[Jaakko]

Originally posted by Az
Nice strawman

What submission? is UNSC resolution 1559 'arabic submission'?

What Arabs? The vast majority of arabs, and a majority of Lebanon's population are anti-Hizbullah.

No need to reduce the country into rubble. Neither did we do that now. What has to be done is the conquest and the cleansing of all armaments from S. Lebanon, and then, the replacement of them with the lebanese army, and the disarmament of the Hizbullah, again, as per UNSC resolution 1559.

Now, I am not claiming the UNSC is any source of moral authority. But from people referring to UNSC resolution over and over in their debates, I think a little bit of intellectual integrity would be a refreshing change.

Strawman? I'm just pointing out the two obvious results of any serious attempts to remove Hezbullah from Lebanon.

Do you just think they can be destroyed like a regular army brigade? They're a guerrilla movement, and will stay as a military force in southern Lebanon until either a) they're fully integrated into mainstream politics or b) the entire population of southern Lebanon is killed or removed from the land they inhabit.

Option b is impossible unless Israel somehow becomes genocidal, so all that's left is an invasion and fruitless occupation, or semi-randomly bombing Lebanon to try and show how manly you are (which Olmert foolishly attempted).

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Why is France trying to torpedo the UN force they argued for?

Because France wants a clear mandate, that allows its troops to actually enforce the cease-fire?

If anything, the breach of the cease-fire today by the Israeli forces shows that the current deployment of Lebanese-UN troops is a farce, as far as force goes.

[DinoDoc]

Why argue for an expansion of UNIFIL instead of a new force as the US wanted if you wanted a clear, more forceful mandate? Seems more like fears of 1983 to me.

[Sandman]

Originally posted by Az
What Arabs? The vast majority of arabs, and a majority of Lebanon's population are anti-Hizbullah.

No way, dude.

[Az]

Do you just think they can be destroyed like a regular army brigade? They're a guerrilla movement, and will stay as a military force in southern Lebanon until either a) they're fully integrated into mainstream politics or b) the entire population of southern Lebanon is killed or removed from the land they inhabit.

Option b is impossible unless Israel somehow becomes genocidal, so all that's left is an invasion and fruitless occupation, or semi-randomly bombing Lebanon to try and show how manly you are (which Olmert foolishly attempted).

and option A is impossible unless they want to. But they don't want to. Because they're fanatics and are an arm of Iran. So there better be an option C.

[Az]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Why argue for an expansion of UNIFIL instead of a new force as the US wanted if you wanted a clear, more forceful mandate? Seems more like fears of 1983 to me.

yeah, it was France who argued for more limited powers to react.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Az
What Arabs? The vast majority of arabs, and a majority of Lebanon's population are anti-Hizbullah.

What makes you think so? The vast popularity of Nasrallah in the Arab world? The fact that the sunni autocratic governments, after their original denounciation of Hizbullah had to backtrack and back Hizbullah due to massive pro-Hizbullah support amongst their populations? Or the 90% support Hizbullah had in the last few polls done of ALL communities in Lebanon?

No need to reduce the country into rubble. Neither did we do that now. What has to be done is the conquest and the cleansing of all armaments from S. Lebanon, and then, the replacement of them with the lebanese army, and the disarmament of the Hizbullah, again, as per UNSC resolution 1559.

Wait, so you made 15,000 families homeless, demolished entire villages and neighborhoods, cause at least $3.5 Billion dollars worth of damages to the infrastrcuture of Lebanon, and that is not "reduced to ruble?"

Oh, and if you failed for 18 years to clear southern Lebanon of weapons, what on EARTH gives you the notion that you can do it in a few months???

Now, I am not claiming the UNSC is any source of moral authority. But from people referring to UNSC resolution over and over in their debates, I think a little bit of intellectual integrity would be a refreshing change.

INtellectual integrity? Was your post above an example of that?

[GePap]

Originally posted by Az
and option A is impossible unless they want to. But they don't want to. Because they're fanatics and are an arm of Iran. So there better be an option C.

Hmm... let the UN occupy the Sheeba farms and draw a final deal on all Lebanese prisoners vis a vi the Israeli soldiers held in Lebanon, then re-start final peace negotiations with Syria to draw up a final peace agreement with them?

How is that for an 'option C'?

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by GePap


Oh, and if you failed for 18 years to clear southern Lebanon of weapons, what on EARTH gives you the notion that you can do it in a few months???

GePap, usually, you do make some sense, but here you really miss it. One thing is to clear the area of hand waepons wich is difficult and actually is police work for the lebanese government to do (and to wich they have failed utterly), another thing is to clear the area of missile weapons - that can be done and has been done by the IDF. The job isn't finished, but that is for both the UN forces and LG police forces.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by GePap


Hmm... let the UN occupy the Sheeba farms and draw a final deal on all Lebanese prisoners vis a vi the Israeli soldiers held in Lebanon, then re-start final peace negotiations with Syria to draw up a final peace agreement with them?

How is that for an 'option C'?

That would probably satisfy the Lebanese government, but certainly not hisb - they would probably do anything to prevent such a solution.

[Az]

What makes you think so? The vast popularity of Nasrallah in the Arab world? The fact that the sunni autocratic governments, after their original denounciation of Hizbullah had to backtrack and back Hizbullah due to massive pro-Hizbullah support amongst their populations? Or the 90% support Hizbullah had in the last few polls done of ALL communities in Lebanon?

I guess the voices I hear from Lebanon are all Mossad agents, though. As to the polls, I've seen the people who've done the polls ( in Lebanon ), and I have no reason to accept their polls as legitimate.

WRT to people in the arab world you may be correct, but it remains irrelevant to the original question - this war certainly isn't anti-arab.

Wait, so you made 15,000 families homeless, demolished entire villages and neighborhoods, cause at least $3.5 Billion dollars worth of damages to the infrastrcuture of Lebanon, and that is not "reduced to ruble?"

Of course not, unless you estimate Lebanons entire infastructure at 3.5USD, or even close to that order of magnitude. Same with the 15 thousand families. It's nothing compared to what a full blown conventional war would do.

Oh, and if you failed for 18 years to clear southern Lebanon of weapons, what on EARTH gives you the notion that you can do it in a few months???

that would be right if we controlled southern Lebanon for 18 years. But we didn't - We controlled a stretch of land along the border, that btw surved it's main purpose - the prevention of land intrusions and attacks on civilians - as were the case prior to 82.

Hmm... let the UN occupy the Sheeba farms and draw a final deal on all Lebanese prisoners vis a vi the Israeli soldiers held in Lebanon, then re-start final peace negotiations with Syria to draw up a final peace agreement with them?

How is that for an 'option C'?

How is that anything like a solution?

INtellectual integrity? Was your post above an example of that

Was this an example of answering the question?

[GePap]

Originally posted by BlackCat


GePap, usually, you do make some sense, but here you really miss it. One thing is to clear the area of hand waepons wich is difficult and actually is police work for the lebanese government to do (and to wich they have failed utterly), another thing is to clear the area of missile weapons - that can be done and has been done by the IDF. The job isn't finished, but that is for both the UN forces and LG police forces.

Israel demands the full disarmanent of Hizbullah. FULL DISARMAMENT. That means no more weapons, period. That included any weapon, including small arms.

Please do pay attention to the news.

[GePap]

Originally posted by BlackCat


That would probably satisfy the Lebanese government, but certainly not hisb - they would probably do anything to prevent such a solution.

Actually, those are Hizbullah's demands. So unless you can come up with anything to show that Hizbullah would not want to have its demands met, I call bull.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by GePap


Israel demands the full disarmanent of Hizbullah. FULL DISARMAMENT. That means no more weapons, period. That included any weapon, including small arms.

Please do pay attention to the news.

And that is a very reasonable demand, but I seriously doubt that that is the goal of IDF actions - that is to destroy hizb capability to make missile attacks primarily, and decimate hizb foot soldiers secondarily. Then Ãt's up to UN and LG "police" to disarm the remaining.

I don't consider IDF to be idiots, so they clearly doesn't have the job of disarming hisb, just to clip their nails.