How the Orange revolution lost its juice

[Dinner]

The Mexican election doesn't seem to have been mared with the wide spread fraud that was common in Mexico just 20-25 years ago. In fact, while not the cleanest election ever, it was a relatively clean election. The loser is just mad that he lost which is to bad.

[LordShiva]

I don't think the FSB poisoned any of the Mexican candidates with dioxin, either.

[Arrian]

MZ has been posting about the Mexican election over at MZO. In short, it was cleaner than in the past, but not totally clean. International observers approved, but obviously they can't be everywhere. It's very had to know whether or not it cost Obrador the election.

@ Serb. You don't understand democracy, dude. You think you do, but you're mistaken.

Most people here were happy about the "Orange Revolution" because of the democratic aspect, not the "pro-west, free market" aspect. I was happy that Yeltsin resisted the attempted coup in 1991 (?), but clearly the capitalist reforms under him were implemented poorly. Does that make his victory bad? NO.

-Arrian

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Arrian
MZ has been posting about the Mexican election over at MZO. In short, it was cleaner than in the past, but not totally clean. International observers approved, but obviously they can't be everywhere. It's very had to know whether or not it cost Obrador the election.

@ Serb. You don't understand democracy, dude. You think you do, but you're mistaken.

Most people here were happy about the "Orange Revolution" because of the democratic aspect, not the "pro-west, free market" aspect. I was happy that Yeltsin resisted the attempted coup in 1991 (?), but clearly the capitalist reforms under him were implemented poorly. Does that make his victory bad? NO.

-Arrian

You dont understand politics Arrian. Concern for process is bourgeois liberal humanitarian softness, politics is about power, Soviet power MUST be imposed on the Ukraine, and the grain MUST be collected immediately, death to the kulaks!, arghh..........

[Arrian]

Nah, to do it right I think you need to down a liter of vodka first. Then it'll sound right

-Arrian

[Spiffor]

A propos the leftie scum in Mexico.

From the BBC

Partial recount begins in Mexico
A partial recount of last month's disputed presidential election is under way in Mexico.

The official result gave a narrow victory to the conservative Felipe Calderon over left-wing candidate Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador.

Mr Lopez Obrador says there was fraud and has led a mass civil disobedience campaign to demand a full recount.

Thousands of his supporters have been demonstrating for more than a week on the streets of Mexico City.

The Mexican people do not want only part of the truth
Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador
Electoral officials and foreign observers have said the vote was generally fair.

The electoral court agreed on Saturday to recount votes from about 9% of the polling centres.

But Mr Lopez Obrador said this was not enough, and vowed his campaign would continue.

"The Mexican people do not want only part of the truth," he said.

After more than a week of sit-ins which have paralysed the Mexican capital, on Tuesday Mr Lopez Obrador's supporters took over toll booths and allowed motorists to enter the city for free.

Mr Lopez Obrador has said the protests are just the start of a long-term movement for institutional change.

Official results from the 2 July election showed that Mr Lopez Obrador lost to Mr Calderon by less than 0.6 of a percentage point - or about 240,000 votes out of a total electorate of 41 million.

But Mr Lopez Obrador has given some 900 pages of what he says is evidence of electoral irregularities to the Federal Electoral Tribunal to press his calls for a full recount.

The tribunal has until 6 September to make its final ruling on the winner.

Analysts say if widespread irregularities are discovered, the judges could order a more sweeping recount.

Little extra:

Here (Spanish) are the main issues Obrador raises about the election's irregularities. Among them, 72,000 ballot boxes have experienced irregularities. On a 240,000 vote differential, that's quite a bit.

I can't read Spanish, so I might have not understood everything. In any case, I don't see how a supporter of the Orange revolution might possibly not support what Obrador is doing.

[lord of the mark]

"The Mexican people do not want only part of the truth
Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador
Electoral officials and foreign observers have said the vote was generally fair.

The electoral court agreed on Saturday to recount votes from about 9% of the polling centres.

But Mr Lopez Obrador said this was not enough, and vowed his campaign would continue.

"The Mexican people do not want only part of the truth," he said."

The court did agree to a recount. Of a vote that election officials said was generally fair. He seems to be using civil disobedience against a court ruling, and AFAICT, without the evidence that the OR had.

But I dont condemn it - yet. A strong Mexican polity, which understands how far it has come in the last few years, can probably withstand it. If and when Obrador begins to take clearly antidemocratic positions my concern will increase.

[lord of the mark]

BTW, Spiff, isnt it the case that hes NOT challenging the legislative ballots, despite the same irregularities? Cause he and PRI are in an alliance to control the legislature, and he doesnt want to shake that up.

[Arrian]

I read an op-ed piece in the Times of London today that was on the other side entirely (claiming that Obrador cannot back up his claims of 70k/240k ballot stations experiencing "irregularities" and accusing him of being anti-democracy because he was threatening ongoing resistance even if the partial recount doesn't work for him).

It's hard to know the truth. Master Zen believes the election was a sham, for what that's worth.
If you're interested in his (and others') take:

http://forums.mzocentral.net//index.php?showtopic=16572

-Arrian

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Spiffor
From the I don't see how a supporter of the Orange revolution might possibly not support what Obrador is doing.

And how, pray tell, does an opponent of the Orange Revolution defend what Obrador is doing? O isnt as effective at bring the capital to halt yet?

[Az]

Originally posted by Serb


The winner of Leningrad's judo championship of 1975 (no kidding).

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[Spiffor]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
And how, pray tell, does an opponent of the Orange Revolution defend what Obrador is doing? O isnt as effective at bring the capital to halt yet?

Actually, I would have been slightly sympathetic to the Orange Revolution back in the day, if there hadn't been a sickening pro-Yushchenko propaganda here.

Generally, I start out favourable to civil disobediance. Specifically, in Ukraine's case, I started out indifferent to both clowns (Yushchenko and Yanukovich), whom I both deem to be a nuisance for Ukraine. My opposition to the Orange Revolution is absolutely not grounded in rationality, nor in my deep beliefs, but simply by the fact that I was really fed up with hearing how great Yushchenko was, while Yanukovich was teh evil.

And Serb is right: if Yushchenko had been leading a leftie revolution against a pro-west "tough love democracy" (for a lack of better words describing Kuchma's Ukraine), he'd be seen as some dangerous idiot.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Az
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[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Spiffor

Actually, I would have been slightly sympathetic to the Orange Revolution back in the day, if there hadn't been a sickening pro-Yushchenko propaganda here.

Oh poor, spiffy, subject to all the eevil right wing neocon poly posters

If i let stuff like that bother me, id be to the right of Netanyahu by now - i doubt anything said pro-Yusch was half as disgusting as things ive put up with.

Look, Yanukovich has a bona fide parliamentary majority, and im glad that Yusch is not dissolving parliament to keep Yanu from becoming PM. But Yanu is STILL someone who wants to bring Ukraine closer to Putins Russia, to the people who MAY have poisoned his opponent, and who probably WAS in on fraud in the earlier election. Hes no saint. And Yusch DID stand up to that fraud, and FOR an independent Ukraine. Its too bad he found the OR forces divided, and didnt solve the corruption problem.

And btw, Yusch SHOULD be commended for compromising, dont you think?

[Serb]

Originally posted by Az



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