The Middle East Continues...

[chequita guevara]

The Romans were at war with the Persians most of the time.

[Ecthy]

There were several wars between them, but it wasn't like the entire region was in flames.

[lord of the mark]

Israel has formal peace treaties with both Egypt and Jordan, and has de facto good relations with Morocco, Mauritania, and, to a lesser extent, Tunisia. Ultimately peace will advance. Israelis, most especially the current govt, certainly want it to, and its in the interest of the arabs, and the most progressive will reach for it.

The question is how to resolve the war in a Lebanon in a way that is most likely to advance peace.

Clearly leaving Hezbollah in control of southern lebanon is a formula for another war. Whenever Hezb needs to disrupt the Lebanese political situation, or to assist Iran, it will launch as many rockets as necessary, to the point where Israel must either respond or massively lose its reputation for deterrence.

Ergo, some other force must be in place in S Lebanon. Ideally this would be the Lebanese army. However its widely held that the Leb army doesnt have the force to do this without Hezb consent, and theres no hint that Hezb would consent.

No one on either side wants Israel to occupy S. Leb.

Ergo the best bet is an international force, a large and strong force, with a strong mandate. If its not possible for such a force to complete the disarmament of Hezbollah (and in all likelihood it will not be possible) the force can at least have a mandate to keep Hezb arms and troops out of a large swath of S Leb (the area south of the Litani?) While working with the Lebanese army to expand its control of the part of S. Lebanon that is north of the Litani.

As a way of further strengthening the Lebanese govt, Israel can agree to open direct, bilateral discussions with the Lebanese govt on the issue of the Shabaa Farms.

[Whoha]

Originally posted by BeBro
No, there was lots of guerilla warfare, watch "Life of Brian".

"Brothers, Brothers we should be struggling together!"

"We are!"

"No, No, Against a common enemy!"

"The Judean Peoples Front!"

"No the Romans!"

"oh... yeah..."

[Ming]

And in the news...

Hezbollah launches rocket onslaught on Israel
Lebanon estimates $2 billion in damage from Israeli attacks

Wednesday, August 2, 2006; Posted: 11:24 a.m. EDT (15:24 GMT)

Israeli forces inspect damage Wednesday north of Nahariya after a Hezbollah rocket killed a person.
Image:

JERUSALEM (CNN) -- As Israel pushed deeper into Lebanon on Wednesday, Hezbollah responded by sending a rocket farther south than ever -- in a wave of launches that killed one Israeli and wounded more than a dozen others.

Israeli police counted 190 rockets slamming into northern Israel, the highest single-day tally of the three-week conflict.

Also, a rocket landed in the Palestinian-controlled West Bank between Faqua and Jelaboun, police said, the farthest south yet of such an attack.

Arabic-language media, including Hezbollah's Al Manar TV, report that 200 to 300 rockets have landed inside Israel.

Hezbollah said it had fired more Khaybar-1 rockets on the Israeli town of Afula, 44 miles (70 kilometers) southeast of Haifa, according to The Associated Press. The militant group also struck that town with such a rocket Friday. (Full story)

One Katyusha rocket killed an Israeli at a kibbutz north of Nahariya on Wednesday, Israeli officials said.
Police said 15 people were injured, but none seriously.

Twenty-nine rockets hit inside the northern Israeli towns of Nahariya, Safed, Tiberias, Kiryat Shmona, Carmiel, Maalot as well as in upper Galilee, including some that struck homes.

Air raid sirens could be heard in Afula, Beit Shean and Nazareth. The Israeli navy also sounded sirens in Haifa's harbor. (Watch how Katyusha set northern Israel on fire -- 1:27)

The rocket onslaught came as Israel Defense Forces stepped up its offensive against Hezbollah, raiding an eastern Lebanese hospital in Baalbeck overnight that the IDF said was a base for militant fighters.

Israeli forces killed 10 militants and captured five others in the assault on the Baalbeck facility, according Lt. Gen. Dan Halutz, the Israeli army's chief of staff. No Israeli forces were injured in the raid, he said.

Lebanese security forces said 16 people died and 13 were wounded in the attack.

Hezbollah fighters were using the hospital and surrounding area as a logistical base, housing many leaders, Halutz said.

Israeli forces seized intelligence information in the hospital, Halutz said. The IDF also reportedly destroyed a large supply of missiles.

"There are no patients there; there is no hospital," Israeli Prime Minister Olmert Ehud Olmert said. "This is the basis of Hezbollah in disguise. It's named a hospital precisely to mislead you and others that will consider it a place no army will intervene with."

The Associated Press quoted residents who said the hospital is financed by an Iranian charity that is close to Hezbollah. Hezbollah told AP the facility was empty of patients at the time of the raid.

"It was empty last night, there was no one there," said the anonymous spokesman.

One of a series of air raids struck the village of Al Jamaliyeh, less than a mile from the hospital, AP reported. A missile hit the house of the village's mayor, Hussein Jamaleddin, instantly killing his son, brother, and five other relatives, according to AP.

"Where is the press? Where is the media to see this massacre? Count our dead. Count our body parts," Jamaleddin told The Associated Press on the telephone, minutes after the missile strike.

A family of seven -- a mother, father and their five children -- were killed in another air raid on an area near Al Jamaliyeh, witnesses told AP. A van driver was also killed when another missile struck nearby, AP reported.

Israeli jets also pounded a Lebanese army position west of Sidon and south of Beirut, killing one soldier and injuring several others, according to the Lebanese army. (Watch Lebanese racing to get out of range -- 1:51)

The Israeli military said an estimated 25,000 soldiers are operating in nine southern Lebanese villages near the Syrian border as part of its campaign to disarm Hezbollah.

As of Wednesday, 570 Lebanese civilians and soldiers have died and 2,131 have been wounded in the Israel's bombardment of Lebanon, Lebanese security forces.

Israel has reported 55 deaths -- including 19 civilians -- and 580 injuries during the conflict, according to the IDF.

Israeli Justice Minister Haim Ramon said Tuesday that the military campaign has wiped out 300 of the estimated 2,000 Hezbollah fighters in Lebanon.

"Hezbollah has taken a serious beating, and that is why the pressure of a ground offensive will produce the expected results," Ramon told Israeli Channel 10.

Arabic-language networks reported that Hezbollah denied Ramon's assertions.

Israeli attacks on the Lebanese infrastructure have caused $2 billion worth of damage, said a spokesman for the Lebanese Ministry of Transportation and Public Works.

However, the figure does not include financial losses in tourism and damage to buildings.

Northernmost drive
The Israeli operation in Baalbeck represented the Jewish state's northernmost drive into Lebanon. The push into Baalbeck, some 70 miles (112 kilometers) north of the Israeli border in the Bekaa Valley, comes a day after the Israeli Security Cabinet approved an expansion of the Lebanon campaign. (Watch as Israel presses north -- 3:06)

Israeli troops hit the ground about 6 miles (10 kilometers) north of Baalbeck late Tuesday as fighter jets and helicopters flew support missions in the sky near the eastern Lebanese town, Lebanese security sources said.

The Lebanese army also reported heavy helicopter traffic east and west of the town.

Israeli soldiers also engaged in heavy fighting Tuesday with Hezbollah fighters inside southern Lebanon.

Olmert said Tuesday that conditions are not yet right for a cease-fire because the military campaign is successfully disarming Hezbollah.

"Every single additional day is a day which erodes the strength of this cruel enemy," Olmert told graduates from the National Security College near Tel Aviv.

"Every additional day is a day when the Israeli military ... reduces their firing power and their future ability to hit at us."

In its quest to create a security buffer to protect northern Israel from rockets, the Israeli military said it wanted to push Hezbollah fighters back to the Litani River, which is about 20 miles (32 kilometers) from the Israeli border.

Ramon said Israeli military forces have said they need at least another month "to accomplish their goals."

Israel began its operations after Hezbollah militants crossed into northern Israel and captured two soldiers on July 12.

CNN's Anthony Mills and Paula Hancocks contributed to this report.

Copyright 2006 CNN. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. Associated Press contributed to this report.

[germanos]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
As a way of further strengthening the Lebanese govt, Israel can agree to open direct, bilateral discussions with the Lebanese govt on the issue of the Shabaa Farms.

Why not before the shooting started?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by germanos


Why not before the shooting started?

Did the Lebanese govt request direct, bilateral negotiations with Israel before the shooting started?

Not that theyve requested it now, AFAIK. Im suggesting that as part of an overall initiative that would aim to solve the entire Israel-Lebanon problem, including the disarmament of Hezbollah, it would be appropriate for Israel to bring Shebaa Farms to the table.

[germanos]

WTF?

PM Olmert speaking about the militairy successes of the IDF:

“…All of the population, which is the powerbase of Hezbollah, has been displaced. They lost their property, they lost their positions. They are bitter, they are angry at Hezbollah…”

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nolavconsole/ifs_news/hi/nb_wm_fs.stm?news=1&bbram=1&bbwm=1&nbram=1&nbwm=1&nol_storyid=5237808

Is he saying that Israel's goal is to deliberately displace as much people as possible in an effort to srir them up against Hezbollah?
Is he saying Israel is deliberately attacking the civil population?

edit: longer and better quality at: http://today.reuters.com/tv/videoCha...ets_hit_israel

[Japher]

he is saying that Hezbollah, which is suppose to represent the people, isn't

[atawa]

Not attacking, just displacing them.

[atawa]

But a man like him should know this only works in favour of Hezbollah, mainly what he's doing is ensuring that there will be tensions in the times to come as to make sure the moneytrain from Washington keeps on riding.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by germanos
WTF?

PM Olmert speaking about the militairy successes of the IDF:

“…All of the population, which is the powerbase of Hezbollah, has been displaced. They lost their property, they lost their positions. They are bitter, they are angry at Hezbollah…”

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nolavconsole/ifs_news/hi/nb_wm_fs.stm?news=1&bbram=1&bbwm=1&nbram=1&nbwm=1&nol_storyid=5237808

Is he saying that Israel's goal is to deliberately displace as much people as possible in an effort to srir them up against Hezbollah?
Is he saying Israel is deliberately attacking the civil population?

I dont get audio here.

Is there a transcript somewhere, or is this live?

I suspect hes reviewing the situation - the displacement of the population, which was a byproduct of the war, and is costly to Israel politically, and in terms of its ability to continue the war, has a side benefit - that the pop hates Hezb.

Im not sure hed be correct in asserting that - certainly its not that simple. But without a transcript, its impossible for me to go further.

[germanos]

Originally posted by Japher
he is saying that Hezbollah, which is suppose to represent the people, isn't

Is he? "...the population, which is the powerbase of Hezbollah..."

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by atawa
But a man like him should know this only works in favour of Hezbollah, mainly what he's doing is ensuring that there will be tensions in the times to come as to make sure the moneytrain from Washington keeps on riding.

Reductions in tensions have not led to cuts in aid. OTOH the tensions hurt the Israeli economy. Northern Israel is virtually shut down now.

[germanos]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


I dont get audio here.

Is there a transcript somewhere, or is this live?

I suspect hes reviewing the situation - the displacement of the population, which was a byproduct of the war, and is costly to Israel politically, and in terms of its ability to continue the war, has a side benefit - that the pop hates Hezb.

Im not sure hed be correct in asserting that - certainly its not that simple. But without a transcript, its impossible for me to go further.

I have tried to find a transcript, but so far no luck. It's not live.

I may try to transcribe for you some more. The above quote was a transcript done by me.