Jimmy McCain is joining the Marines

[SlowwHand]

A couple of points, after glancing through the thread.

The USA, and any intelligent country, doesn't want war on their land.

If McCain "arranged" to have his son not serve, no matter what, I can imagine the outcry.
Why would you not support a young man's decision to serve?

[Elok]

Well, he could serve in something less likely to get himself shot/blown up than the Marines. My brother's joining the army next week...as some sort of communications engineer. Something to do with satellites, I think. He'll probably wind up working somewhere in Europe, several years from now when the USA is done paying for his extensive training. His only contact with a rifle will be during basic training. He'll still be considered a Lieutenant like any other when that happens, and his ex's dad (ret. USAF Master Sergeant) will have no choice but to address him as "sir," which I suspect was his big reason for joining the army to begin with.

Whereas the Marines...do they HAVE non-combatant troops? That boy's going over there to get his butt shot at, end of story. A senator could have pulled some strings to get him marginally safe duty in Navy destroyer maintenance or something and avoided most criticism.

[Patroklos]

A senator could have pulled some strings to get him marginally safe duty in Navy destroyer maintenance or something and avoided most criticism.

You think that would AVOID critisism?

Whereas the Marines...do they HAVE non-combatant troops?

Sure they do, they are simply all have basic training.

That boy's going over there to get his butt shot at, end of story.

Only 20% (NY Times) of active duty marines have even been to Iraq or Afghanistan, and only 8% of those have been killed or wounded. Hardly a guaruntee.

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by Elok
A senator could have pulled some strings to get him marginally safe duty in Navy destroyer maintenance or something and avoided most criticism.

Just as Admiral McCain could have pulled strings to get John released from prison camps in North Vietnam. --But this is a family the believes in equal treatment for all.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
It might have been more fortunate if the state that had been tied, had been say, Ohio, rather than Florida. But I dont think anyone really thinks the Bushes somehow engineered it that Florida would be the dead heat, so that it could be in a state that Jeb Bush was governor of.

Not that I think Jeb had much to do with it, but I will remind you that Kate Harris broke state law when she awarded the contract for the voter registration scrubbing to ChoicePoint, broke the law again when she told ChoicePoint to use the most relaxed set of standards, and broke the law a third time when she ordered counties to use the list as it was given to them. This resulted in at least 50,000 non-felons, the vast majority of whom were Black, being prevented from voting.

Unfortunately, despite the BBC discovering this in November, it took until Februrary for even liberal Salon.com to cover it, and the mainstream media only took notice in 2004.

[Elok]

Patroklos: Of course there'd be a scandal if he were discovered pulling strings in ANY way, but it wouldn't reek of nepotism if his son joined a less dangerous division of the armed forces than the Marines. I'm thinking here of something less totally safe than GWB's courageous service in the National Guard (wherein he never came within five hundred miles of any combat). People muttered about the silver spoon in his mouth when they heard about him pulling that duty while his peers were tiptoeing through the claymores in SE Asia.

I'll admit I don't know much about the Marines, but I do know that they're put in harm's way more often than any other branch of the armed forces. That's their job, after all. The kid would be a lot safer in the Navy or Air Force, where there are no IEDs, but nobody could say he wasn't a soldier.

[RoboCon]

Hello there! I see you are discussing GRENADA! Perhaps I can be of assistance.

Grenada was trying to steal Christmas. Chegitz, communists are following in the shoes of monks, being no dangerous. 9-11 changed everything. Marmosets viciously malign the librarians like Walruskkkch. Dukakis lost his shot at the Presidency when he threw Kitty in a vat of demon rum. That's what happens when you leave a liberal in charge.

[Kontiki]

I'm not entirely sure where this talk about McCain "pulling strings" comes from. His son is voluntarily joining the Marines. It's not like he is being drafted, or is facing any kind of impending draft, or even was part of the Marines before Iraq became an issue. The only conceivable thing McCain could do is somehow arrange it so that his son isn't put into combat duty in Iraq, but the odds are against that happening in the first place.

[Elok]

Hmm, I think you're overplaying the schizophrenic randomness and underplaying the conservative element, RC.

[Elok]

Originally posted by Kontiki
I'm not entirely sure where this talk about McCain "pulling strings" comes from. His son is volunatarily joining the Marines. It's not like he is being drafted, or is facing any kind of impending draft, or even was part of the Marines before Iraq became an issue. The only conceivable thing McCain could do is somehow arrange it so that his son isn't put into combat duty in Iraq, but the odds are against that happening in the first place.

True, but a less ballsy enlistment could have been used for almost equal numbers of Patriotism Points to be used in a future political career for the kid, or for his dad's current position. By pulling strings I meant getting him preferential treatment in one of the cushier armed forces.

[Patroklos]

it wouldn't reek of nepotism if his son joined a less dangerous division of the armed forces than the Marines.

I don't think so, if anything I think people would expect him to go into the Navy just like his dad and grandfather.

And why exactly is it more dangerous for a Marine in Fallujah than for an Army soldier in Bagdad? Or better yet a destroyer circling Al Basrah oil terminal (#1 target in Iraq). Even when you seem to mount scorn on the logistics side do you honestly think their controbutions are not just as important as the trigger puller?

And you need to remember something about the Marines, they have the least amount of missions out of all the armed services, and zero stategic ones. No medical branch, no personel branch, very little logistics except tansportation, no aquisitions or R&D. In a way they are glory hogs that take all the credit when in fact the mundane day to days that are actually what make a modern military modern are all taken care of by the other services. The rifle grunt is the lowest common denominator.

I'll admit I don't know much about the Marines, but I do know that they're put in harm's way more often than any other branch of the armed forces. That's their job, after all. The kid would be a lot safer in the Navy or Air Force, where there are no IEDs, but nobody could say he wasn't a soldier.

I think you have an inflated view of the Marines. Fact is that most of the time the Army, Airforce, and Marines sit fat and happy in bases stateside completely safe from any threat. It is the Navy that has fully a third of its forces deployed and in harms way 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. Granted the Marines ride along in the amphibs occasionally so deploy alot more than the Army, but not until Iraq started did the ground troops have anything near the op tempo you seem to think they have consistantly.

And I am not going to think my service matters less than a Marine because the US Navy is better at its job relative to the enemy than any other branch. Hell, most countries don't even bother trying to build blue water navys any more as there is no way they could every acheive parity. Marines were not doing much between 91-03.

[DinoDoc]

Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't that be Jimmy's decision? I'm fairly certain that he would have had to have specifically walked into a Marine recruiter's office or something to that effect. That kind of puts a kink in any plans to pull any strings from behind the scenes to keep him out of the Marines.

[Kontiki]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't that be Jimmy's decision? I'm fairly certain that he would have had to have specifically walked into a Marine recruiter's office or something to that effect. That kind of puts a kink in any plans to pull any strings from behind the scenes to keep him out of the Marines.

Exactly my point.

[Elok]

I'm talking about a deliberate, agreed-on political move between the two of them, not McCain helping his kid and keeping it secret. There seemed to be some implication that such a thing was going on, or an implication that there was such an implication, or something.

Pat, I'm not saying logistics, or destroyers, or fighter planes, are not important, I'm just saying that they're a good deal less hazardous than working in an occupied country on foot. Insurgents and militias don't have fighters or warships (though they do have missiles in some cases, as seen recently in Lebanon). Unless we declare war on China or another major power sometime soon, there's not much combat duty for the Navy or AF.

Which is why if I were joining the armed forces just to cynically milk the system in one way or another (whether politics or the ridiculously good benefits), I would join just about any branch before the Marines. Well, I suppose the Army is about equally dangerous in terms of infantry duty. All I'm saying is that this ain't WWII, dogfights and kamikazes (or attacks on warships) aren't a common threat.

Also, I imagine the Marines have much more rigorous training than Army. My brother told us about the physical fitness requirements for passing basic training; they're absurd. You have to be able to do something like fifty sit-ups in two minutes, run a mile in eight minutes, stuff like that. There are slightly stricter limits for post-specialty training (run a mile in six minutes or something), but they seem to have been eased up to accomodate our increasingly fat American behinds. I can't imagine that the Marines are that easygoing on their recruits. McCain Jr. isn't going to be pampered, one way or another.

[Patroklos]

If I remember correctly from my Citadel days, and this is Army standarts for a 20 year old...

Situs- Min 54/Max 103 in 2 min.

Push ups- 42/Max 103 in 2 min.

Run - 2 miles Max 9:30/Min 13:20

You have to get the minimum in each category to pass, but you get points for every one over the min you do and you have to get a total number of points to pass, so you can't do the minimum in each.

Navy is the same except in the situps you put your hands on your pecks instead of behind your head, and the Marines use pullups as an event as well.