Sectarian break-up of Iraq is now inevitable, admit officials

[Underseer]

Turkey is gonna be really mad at us. If Iraq does break apart along sectarian lines, it's only a matter of time before Iraqi Kurds start working with Turkish Kurds for independence from Turkey...

[GePap]

Originally posted by Underseer
Turkey is gonna be really mad at us. If Iraq does break apart along sectarian lines, it's only a matter of time before Iraqi Kurds start working with Turkish Kurds for independence from Turkey...

Only a matter of time? The Turks are mad at the uS as is because they blame the US for not being able to stop the PKK from using Northern Iraq as a base ALREADY, and cry discrimination in that the US gives Israel a green light in southern Lebanon in the name of "self-defense" but don't let them invade Northern Iraq in the name of "self-defense."

[johncmcleod]

Good, now all we need is a time machine to jump back 2-3 years when everybody else had this debate.

Two or three years ago the debate was whether or not to go to war, and I was against the war. I wasn't really thinking about why Bush was doing it, I was concentrating on how it would turn out. Now I haven't changed my position or anything, and don't need to argue about whether the war was good or bad (it is pretty obvious), but I am just asking what his motive was. I just don't understand it. It isn't really a debate, it is just a question.

Consider the possibility that the chaos may have been one of the goals.

But I don't understand how that helps him. Chaos weakens the US military, costs us a helluva lot of money, makes the war look terrible and in turn destroys his approval ratings. It also creates a breeding ground for more terrorism. Chaos ruins his legacy and political capital, so I'm not sure of what you're getting at.

Did he make the decision, or is Bush an errand boy?

That is a possibility. But what then are the motives of the people Bush is working for (and who are they, I'm assuming you mean Cheney and the neoCons), and why would the president be their errand boy? Is he just a really weak man who gets pushed around by his cabinet? I just don't see it possible for a president to be an errand boy. Bush wouldn't have to listen to them.

Not all kickbacks have to be direct.

Elaborate please.

[monolith94]

Originally posted by Victor Galis
If not for the Kurds in Turkey, I would support the notion of an independent Kurdistan to use as a thorn in Iran's side the way Iran uses Hizbollah as a thorn in the Israeli side.

Wouldn't work the same way. The Kurds are saner than Hizbollah. It'd be a thorn, sure, but only in the pride sense - I doubt the Kurd's'd randomly pick up some rockets and lob 'em at random Iranian targets.

[johncmcleod]

Yeah, like Hezbollah fired rockets at Israel at random. Totally unprovoked.

[Barnabas]

the kidnappings were unprovoked

[techumseh]

You really think this is about a couple of kidnappings?

[Lodi]

You really think this is about a couple of kidnappings?

tecumseh is right. Look at how many previous kidnappings of Israel there were, and did the Israeli response to those earlier ones match the latest kidnapping?

But I don't understand how that helps him.

Bush was under the impression that no one would oppose him as a war president. He still probably believes history will be whitewashed enough so that he will be looked upon positively.

Chaos weakens the US military,

When it becomes palatable Bush and others we say "We need to rebuild our military with a draft." And with this new source of cannon fodder the warmongers will attack more nations.

costs us a helluva lot of money,

Which go in a lot of cases to the world's elite, check out Halliburton and the Carlysle Group.

makes the war look terrible

But that means we have to fix it by further putting our limbs into the meatgrinder. Support the troops. You wouldn't want to cut and run? Note how the media points out that there is a problem, but will villainize and slander exit strategies.

and in turn destroys his approval ratings.

Think the electorate matters to him? See previous elections. Also, he can just sit there and do jack while his last term is winding down.

It also creates a breeding ground for more terrorism.

Meet P2OG:

http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/2002/11/000092.html

http://www.wanttoknow.info/021027latimes

But what then are the motives of the people Bush is working for

Ultimately centralization of wealth and power globally.

and who are they, I'm assuming you mean Cheney and the neoCons

They are agents too.

and why would the president be their errand boy?

Other groups and agents make policy decisions and legislation. See CFR (Council on Foreign Relations.) Do you really think a man who vacations so much and naps during the day for a while really is into governance?

Elaborate please.

Sorry, I am not creative enough to make up a worthy scenario.

[Kuciwalker]

tecumseh is right. Look at how many previous kidnappings of Israel there were, and did the Israeli response to those earlier ones match the latest kidnapping?

Wait... so since Israel has responded in a particular way to previous kidnappings, and it hasn't stopped them, it ought to continue responding in the same way to future kidnappings?

[Lodi]

The point was not over whether the response was an effective 'detterence' response, but why is it that the kidnapping act is elevated to the level of cassus belli for a total war against the Lebanese.

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by Ninot
*mandatory "Isn't FG dead?" post*

He isn't so much dead as "attention whore".

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Lodi
The point was not over whether the response was an effective 'detterence' response, but why is it that the kidnapping act is elevated to the level of cassus belli for a total war against the Lebanese.

It's a casus belli, plain and simple.

[Kuciwalker]

Hezbollah: you didn't do this last time we kidnapped your soldiers! Unfair!

[techumseh]

The foreign policy of states depends on people, such as yourself, taking at face value the reasons their leaders give for going to war. That this can be taken for granted, is evidenced by the credulity of those who believe that the destruction of a country could be triggered by a couple of kidnappings, in an environment where such acts, as well as bombings and assasinations from the air, are commonplace.

[Kuciwalker]

The foreign policy of states depends on people, such as yourself, taking at face value the reasons their leaders give for going to war.

The reasons for going to war don't have to be limited to the casus belli. Moreover, it is the stated aim of the Israeli government to damage or destroy Hezbollah and get 1559 enforced. I take that at face value.