India starts censoring the Internet . . . . .

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Last Conformist
A 2000 year holocaust, and there's still any left? That's inefficiency for you.

Well it is India .

Oh, and Spiffor

[Thedrin]

Originally posted by Last Conformist
A 2000 year holocaust, and there's still any left? That's inefficiency for you.

They should set up some kind of worker exchange. India can send call center trainers and operators to Rwanda and ...

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by Spiffor

Well then, let me explain my position.

Historically, the Brahmins have been at the top of the Hindu food chain. While individual Brahmins weren't necessarily bastards (you can find good and bad guys in any group), they were at the centre of an oppressive system, that put down a humongous part of the population.

Many people think that Brahmins each maintained the system . What they do not realise is that the system maintained itself . A Brahmin who disagreed with the caste system would have been cast out , and would have become an outcaste himself . Most Brahmins were just average guys , who did their job ( teaching and priestly work ) . They had neither the ability nor the guts to try to change the system . They were expected to lead a harsh lifestyle in return for being given intellectual leadership . I want you to read the orthodox rules which a Brahmin is supposed to follow - maybe then you will revise your opinion of them as pampered .

Brahmins are also not the historically powerful and pampered group you make them out to be . The first epic of Hinduism ( the Ramayana ) is written by a person we would today refer to as a Dalit ( the lowest caste , or casteless ) , in which the villain of the peice is a Brahmin ! Brahmins had no fixed source of income - they had to live on alms and donations . It would be foolish to make statements about an entire group so diverse , but expectations from Brahmins were high , and rewards were not as high ( proportionally ) . They were given intellectual dominion over society - in return for that , they had to cede physical control to the other castes .

Originally posted by Spiffor

Things have only started to change when modern India was founded, and decided to marke the caste system irrelevant.

And whose decision was it to make caste-based discrimination illegal - the Brahmins ! The makers of India's constitution were majorly Brahmin ( with one very notable exception , that of Dr. Ambedkar ) . It was they who codified the caste system , and eventually it was they who derecognised and illegalised it .

Originally posted by Spiffor

Even though you might not intend it personally, a Hindu nationalist stance might have as consequence the revival of the worst aspects of hinduism. Just like the current Muslim nationalism (that is so strong in too many places around the world) has made the worst aspects of Islam mainstream again.

Why do you label me a Hindu nationalist ? I have never based my concept of a nation on my religion . There is no Hindu nation , because defining Hindu is very difficult if not impossible . You can only have a broad general criterion of Hinduness which normally ends up including the Buddhists and Jains and Sikhs if it is to retain any meaning . Hindutva is an ideology whose literal translation is "Hindu-ness" . I don't know enough about Hindutva to comment upon it , but the behaviour of the BJP , which adopted it , has so far been better than that of its opposition .

As for your fear - it is totally unfounded . All Hindu organisations of India unequivocally denounce the caste system , and say that the oppression of caste had no scriptural backing ( including the ones you fear are Hindu nationalist , including the RSS , BJP , and VHP ) . All the newspapers which are their mouthpieces regularly have articles denouncing the caste system ( know this because I actually bother to read them instead of merely giving a knee-jerk response to some reporter'c commenting on them as Hindu nationalists ) .

In their worldview , Hindu society has lost to outside attackers because it was divided . Their objective is to have a Hindu society which is strong enough to repel any attack and to reconquer the heights of ancient glory . That is why they view anything which is divisive of Hindus as detrimental . If the caste system is divisive , then it must be totally rejected - that is their view . So is anything else that is divisive .

I am a close associate of a person who is a RSS member . When I had asked him about the RSS' attitude to towards caste , he said that they wanted to banish it .

Originally posted by Spiffor

I don't accuse you of wanting to oppress people because of their caste. However, you also don't seem to consider the caste system (or more accurately, its remaining into irrelevance) as an absolute priority. At least, I've never seen you post about it.

But of course I wish the caste system would go away as soon as possible ! And I support the only method of doing so - social reform led by the higher castes , with the objective of empowering the lower castes so that they can be brought into the mainstream . That is why I oppose fixed quotas for SCs/STs in institutes of higher learning ( which create dependence in the lower castes and resentment among the upper castes and even then don't really work ) , but support initiatives to educate them at the primary and secondary levels .

For example , an organisation which you call Hindu nationalist , the RSS , has undertaken a project to make the National Capital Region of Delhi 100 % functionally literate within a few years to commemmorate the anniversary of one of their leaders . This is a mammoth job , but already the infrastructure is in place to do it , and it is being used . At first , trials were conducted in Delhi to see the response and the success rate of the method . After finding that the method was successful , it was decided to adopt it on a large scale .

The first phase consists of RSS members devoting their time to making literate the first batch of people , for free . The first batch is deemed successfully literate when they can read and write upto a certain standard and are able to teach the next batch ( I think one of the conditions is that you have to teach another person literacy in order to get the literacy education in the first place ) . The volunteer centres keep working , but successive batches increase the number of people being made literate at each iteration .

There are two things to note here .

The first is that the labour which goes in teaching people is all voluntary - nobody is paid to do this work . It is all done by RSS member volunteers . Thus , the cost to make one person literate is - and you will not believe this - a little less than a dollar ( and this does not count that that person will make another literate , and the next another , and so on ) .

The second is a characteristic typical of RSS programs - it aims for 100 % literacy - an absolute . This means that they will have to ignore all barriers of caste , religion , or gender in order to achieve this target . There will be no discrimination on the basis of caste , or religion , or monetary status ( the whole thing is free ) , or gender , or anything at all , if they want to achieve this target . The RSS has always worked for the whole of Indian society in all the programs it undertakes . I consider the RSS as a gigantic failure of marketing , because in any disaster , RSS workers are usually the first to reach the spot , the ones who do a lot of the dirty work part of disaster relief , and who claim no credit , and thus are reviled .

Of course , the irony of the thing is that if they achieve this target , then the local government of Delhi , which is is Congress hands , will claim the credit , and again the RSS' contribution will be ignored .

As for the Hindu nationalist charge against the RSS - The RSS has a few Muslim members , and a large number of Jain and Sikh members . Is that the mark of a Hindu nationalist organisation ?

Originally posted by Spiffor

If you were a dalit, or even a shudra, I hthink that would be a nagging concern in your head, and it would likely make you much more cautious about all that.

Maybe . But I am not , so it is not a nagging concern . And even if I were Dalit or Shudra , the various press statements given out by Hindu organisations condemning caste , and the social work they do irrespective of caste , should reassure me .

[aneeshm]

Spiffor - I think that a better place and context to continue this rather constructive threadjack is the new thread I have opened - right here .

[Spiffor]

Thanks for the new thread

I'm a bit drunk now, so I can't bring a constructive response, but I'm happy to have read your answer.

I didn't know the rejection of the caste system was so universal in Idia. And any literacy initiative (especially such a big one) is good to see

[aneeshm]

A newspaper had published the full list of banned sites . I will now provide my comments on the other banned sites .

mypetjawa.mu.nu

Their own analysis of the situation :

July 19, 2006
Why The Jawa Report Was Banned in India and Why it Matters

India has banned a number of websites by domain, but has only singled out 17 websites by name, including this one. Among the American websites all are connected in some way to The Jawa Report.

Why did India ban this website? And what is the larger meaning of this action?

The short answer to the first question is that we offended Islamists and India is afraid of its own Muslim citizens. The short answer to the second question is that, sadly, it is increasingly becoming evident that liberty may not be able to exist wherever there is a large population of Muslims.

What, specifically, did we do to offend Islamists and their supporters in the Muslim world?

Some time ago a story began to be circulated in the mainstream press that a detainee's Koran had been put in a toilet at Guantanamo Bay. It later turned out that the story was false.

Nevertheless, the reaction from many in the Muslim world was quite revealing about an alleged 'tiny minority of extremists'. Riots erupted all over the world by people who were offended. Thousands marched, caused property damage, and some were even killed.

Over what? A story about a book being put in a toilet.

We can understand why someone might get offended over their holy book being mistreated. We might get offended if someone did the same to a Bible. But anyone who would engage in violence over such an action has a values system that is not only foreign to us, but also one which is not compatible with liberty.

This reaction, along with the later reaction of many Muslims over cartoons depicting Mohammed, was a clarifying moment for us.

Islam, as understood by many Muslims, is not a tolerant religion.

The very definition of tolerance is to allow that which we do not agree with. The moment Muslims demand that their governments punish those who say, write, or depict things that they find offensive, they reveal their intolerance.

Many people in my experience are intolerant. Intolerance is not a very unique attribute. It is intolerance coupled with threats of violence that makes many Muslims unique in the world. It is also what makes Islam uniquely dangerous among the major religions of the world.

Not only do these intolerant Muslims wish for offensive speech to stop, but they threaten violence upon any government unwilling to censor.

So, our reaction to the overreaction in the Muslim world was to make fun of them by making fun of the Koran flushing story. Oddly, making fun of intolerant people is now considered a form of intolerance by many in the world.

We admit that the humor involved was tasteless. We also admit that we knew that it would offend some. But if you can't legitimately offend people engaging in riots, who advocate criminal penalties for blasphemy, and who wish your destruction, who can you offend?

While the specific reason for India's attempt to ban us was that we were blasphemous, the more general reason was because it feared its own citizens.

India has been taken hostage by its sizeable Muslim population. It is afraid of its own citizens. It fears that if they are exposed to that which is religiously offensive, that violence might erupt. That if the government doesn't do something, then they might just have to do something about the government.

India's banning of this and other websites, then, is completely rational. It is based on the real fear of real people who do real violence. Thus, it is completely understandable.

While we might understand India's reason for banning our website, we certainly don't condone it.

Giving in to violent threats is not, in my book, a winning strategy for defeating the very people who are threatening you. Appeasement only works if your goal is appeasement. If your goal is to drag Muslims who have a 7th century mentality about how the world ought to be ordered into the 21st century, then this is no way to do it.

This is not to say that we don't agree that there might be limits to free speech. Such limits seem legitimate in the context of war, for instance.

However, when one bans speech because it is religiously offensive, then two freedoms are killed at the same time. A nation cannot truly have freedom of religion if that religion is immune from public criticism. A nation cannot truly have freedom of speech if blasphemy becomes a criminal act.

Sadly, there is not a single country in the world where Muslims are a majority that criticisms of Islam are legally tolerated. While Muslims proudly proclaim that they 'tolerate' Chrisianity, they do not mean tolerance in the Western sense. They may 'tolerate' Chrisitians worshipping in their own churches, but the minute that a Christian steps out in public he is unable to accomplish the 'Great Commission' of trying to convert the non-believer into a believer.

Some 'moderate' Muslim countries allow Hindus, Buddhists, and Christians to be converted to whichever religion that they may choose. But once a Muslim, always a Muslim. It is forbidden for any missionary of any faith to try to convert a Muslim.

Islam is a one-way street.

India's actions lead us to suspect that it will not just be Islamic states where religious oppression is the norm, but that any country with a sizeable Muslim minority might also be forced, for the sake of domestic tranquility, to ban blasphemy. And we believe that our fears are founded on more than this one case.

A simple statistical analysis shows that there is a strong inverse correlation between Muslim populations and freedom. What this means is that the more Muslims there are in your country, the more likely it is that your country is repressive. India's actions give us a definite candidate for the causal mechanism underlying the correlation.

There is some good news, though, in those same statistics. Since Geoge W. Bush has been in office, declaring liberty and democracy the common birthright of humanity, Muslim countries are becoming more free. None has fully reached that goal in our understanding of the term and there are some exceptions to the rule, but as a whole they are moving in the right direction.

We hope that the movement to liberalize will continue in the Muslim world.

If Muslim countries are moving in the right direction, liberalizing in ways unimaginable before the Bush administration turned up the heat, it is odd that some non-Muslim countries seem to be moving in the opposite direction while responding to the same pressures.

If India and other countries hope that by banning a handful of websites, or by condemning speech critical of Islam, that it will appease their Muslim populations, they have greatly miscalculated.

What offends Islamists and many Muslims is not what we or others say, it is that they are not in power to stop us from saying it.

The ultimate goal of these people is the creation of a state based on sharia (or Islamic) law. One in which Muslims rule and Christians, Hindus, and Buddhists take a back seat. It is only then, when it is Muslims who do the deciding on what needs to be banned, that they will be happy.

The real gripe Muslims have in non-Muslim countries is about power. They want it, but don't yet have the numbers to exercise it.

India, of all countries, should understand this. Both Pakistan and Bangledesh were states founded because Muslims on the Indian subcontinent refused to be ruled by any other than a Muslim master. Several wars have been fought between India and her Muslim neighbors because of this. Today, a low-level war continues in Indian Kashmir because Muslims refuse to be governed by any country in which they are not a majority. Even when that country is headed by a Muslim, which is the case in India right now, sizeable numbers of Muslims demand more.

India is said to be a secular state with aspirations of greatness. Its actions today show that it is neither completely secular nor ready for its proper place on the world stage.

This is all doubly sad because India is also a natural ally against the cancer of Islamic fundamentalism. It is on the frontline in the war against the global jihadis.

It is India, not the U.S., which shares its bloody borders with the world of Islam. Mumbai should be a reminder to India who its real friends are, and who are its enemies.

The move towards religious censorship by India is a mistake. A nation does not cement its alliances by adopting the values of its enemies and rejecting those of nations willing to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with it against forces which plan its destruction.

Although we, who have always supported India in the past, feel that this action was a slap in the face, we continue to wish her continued progress and prosperity. A wealthy India is an India better able to stay off the attacks of the barbarians at her gates. Those barbarians are our common enemies.

India may have turned its back on us, but we will not be so petty as to completely turn our backs on her.

As far as the reason why it was banned goes , the analysis is spot on . The Indian government has , in the past , for fear of Muslims rampaging , banned books like the Satanic Verses , and others .

[aneeshm]

pajamaeditors.blogspot.com
exposingtheleft.blogspot.com
Political censorship of the opposition ( the Left is in power right now ) , plain and simple . Will commies never learn ? Or are they born idiotic ?


thepiratescove.us
Another site banned to appease Muslims .


commonfolkcommonsense.blogspot.com
This one is in Chinese , so I have no idea why it was banned . Someone help me out here ?


bamapachyderm.com
Another one , for "offending Muslim sensibilities" . *sigh*


princesskimberley.blogspot.com
The blog seems to be empty , so I can't tell what it was banned for .


merrimusings.typepad.com
This is a defunct site .


mackers-world.com
I have surfed this site extensively , but I didn't find whatever material the government deemed banworthy . The only thing is that in his dislikes in his profile , the owner writes "liberals" . Do the retarded communists of India deem that offensive enough to have it banned ?

https://www.dalitstan.org

The site is now offline , with a message that we will be back as soon as possible .

https://www.hindudumanrights.org

Their statement about the ban :

HHR Press Release, 20 July 2006
Announcement of a Protest to the Indian Government

The horrific terror attacks on 11 July in Mumbai have caused outrage across the world but following similar attacks in London, Madrid and New York it comes as no huge surprise. That these attacks seem to have received less attention in the West is another story but Indian citizens have become used to the world ignoring terror attacks in India. More worryingly however is the general attitude of the Indian government to terror attacks on its own citizens and Hindu religious sites. Already this year there have been numerous attacks on civilians and especially children in India.

Further, it is the Indian government itself which is largely responsible for creating the arena of hatred against Hindus and Hindu culture through its policies since Independence. The education system in India openly discriminates against Hindus and Hinduism which fuels the cycle of denigration we see in the Indian media. It is also the government of India which has continued and extended colonial policies designed to impoverish local economies through the taxing and land grabbing of (only) Hindu temples. The government's example is carried through to its logical conclusions with the ethnic cleansing of Hindus from the state of Jammu & Kashmir and in North Eastern India. Parts of India's countryside are also now in the control of Maoist terrorists, supported by their allies in the Indian government and responsible for killings of Hindu villagers and Hindu tribal peoples.

On the 15th of August 1947, Mahatma Gandhi refused to celebrate India's Independence because he was dismayed at all the killing that was taking place in the wake of this freedom. On the 15th of August, the government of India will celebrate 59 years of Independence from British Rule but the same violence observed by Gandhiji has continued until this day. This year, on the 15th, Hindu Human Rights invites everyone to boycott the "celebrations" and join us to register their protest at how the Indian government has abused its position and used the Constitution and Law to fan the flames of hatred rather than serving the people it is supposed to govern.

Protest begins at 2pm until 5pm on Tuesday 15 August 2006 outside the High Commission of India, India House, Aldwych, London WC2B 4NA, nearest tube stations: Charing Cross (Northern, Bakerloo lines) or Embankment (District, Circle, Northern, Bakerloo lines) We thank you for your support.

Hindu Human Rights,
Serving Hindus Worldwide

I see nothing inciteful there .

https://www.nndh.com

The same as the Dalitstan site .


bloodroyaltriped.com
The same as the Dalitstan website .


imagesearchyahoo.com
Nothing was there on the website at all , except an error message .

https://www.imamali8.com

The same as the Dalitstan website .

https://www.rahulyadav.com

The only thing remotely related to censorship I could find of this guy's website was that he had , in the "Links" part of his page , linked to the RSS , BJP , VHP , and Hindu Vived Kendra . Now you start banning sites which link sites with which you disagree ? WTBF ?

[aneeshm]

EDIT : Be sure to read the next post before commenting on this one .

Update : After the government was thoroughly walloped by the media and by bloggers , it has lifted the ban ( most probably because they knew that the PIL ( Public Interest Litigation ) filed against it would win in the courts , and the administration would be made to look bad ) .

Another victory for freedom of speech . I wish the old government was back in power - they enacted a law ( The Prasar Bharati Act ) which gave autonomy to the media , knowing that the political left in India has a habit of trying to curb criticism using unconstitutional means .

[aneeshm]

Update : It turns out that they have not backtracked at all , but are saying that only the specified websites , and not the entire blogging site , is to be blocked . This , in effect , means that instead of blocking the whole of blogspot or blogger , they will have to block only certain blogs by certain people .

The text of the new order :

DOT ORDERS INTERNET SERVICE PROVIDERS TO BLOCK ONLY THE SPECIFIED WEBPAGES/WEBSITES
17:12 IST
The Department of Telecom (DoT) has instructed all the Internet Service Providers (ISPs) in the country to block only the specified website/webpages on the parent website. The DoT, in its letter issued to all the ISPs has mentioned that it had come to notice that in some cases the parent website had been blocked in contravention to what was stated in its earlier order dated 13th July 2006 whereby it ordered the ISPs to block certain websites/webpages.

As such the DoT has now directed all the ISPs to strictly comply with the order dated 13th July 2006 and provide unhindered access to Internet except for the websites/webpages which have been specifically mentioned in its orders issued from time to time.

The DoT has further sought explanation from the erring ISPs as to why action be not taken against them for blocking unintended websites/webpages.

I'm damn sure this government is going to get their ass handed to them by the Supreme Court on this .

[aneeshm]

Update : The sites are now inaccessible again . I could access them only for a brief span of time , after which they were re-blocked .