"what they need to do is get Syria to get Hezbollah to stop..."

[chequita guevara]

I went to school with two Jewish Serbian Kosovars in the early 90s. They weren't related, and I don't know if they knew each other, but each told the same stories about what was happening to ethnic minorities there. The KLA was targetting everyone who wasn't Albanian.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara

The Israeli has been patient for years - they called back their army, destroyed their settlements and got what ?

They still occupy a small part of Lebanon.

Not according to the international community (tm) who certified the withdrawal as complete in the 2000.

They hold 9,000 Lebanese civilians in prison,

An issue that could better be worked out via diplomacy rather than a raid by a proxy army by two hostile powers, don't you think?

they still oppress the Palestinians, both in the occupied territories and in Israel, etc.

The last time I checked the Lebanese people weren't in either Gaza or the West Bank nor were they Palestinians. How exactly do they qualify as Palestinians in the occupied territories?

[Heresson]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Not according to the international community (tm) who certified the withdrawal as complete in the 2000

"International community" is wrong. Check lom's post to find out Shebaa was part of Lebanon occupied by Syria until it got into Israeli hands

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by MOBIUS
Way to cherrypick your answers - anything too difficult for you, you paper over and pretend it doesn't exist...

No - you're just such a predictable, repetitive little twit that most of your "points" aren't worth response.

So far hezb has a >50% military kills to civ kills compared to Israel's so-called precision strikes.

Indeed Israel has killed more children than hezb has killed Israelis! Who are the terrorists now, eh?

More ignorance from Mobystan. "Precision" ordance will actually hit the target. Did you ever think of that? The targeting may be incorrect, it may be overzealous, it may be based on faulty intel, or it may hit a high value target, but it will hit what it's aimed at. Hisbullah's tactic is just point, shoot and run - and who knows what, if anything, might be under wherever the piece of **** rocket will eventually land. Precision guidance vs unaimed has nothing to do with casualties, you ****wit.

Wow, officially the Israelis have killed more Lebanese soldiers than hezb fighters...

Before you get a little hard on about believing the hezb casualties etc, even I reckon more hezb have died - say 12 or 13 instead?

You mean they should try and escape the fighting?

They should have abandoned the area years ago - do people still live in Chernobyl, for ****'s sake. "Yes, we will raise our children among "resistance fighters" and their rocket factories, bunkers, etc...." But Emile Lahoud said it best: "Hisbullah is part of the government of Lebanon." So civilians get ****ed by their government, and the only use Hisbullah has for them is the propaganda value of their deaths and misery. And that's the side you're supporting?

Not to mention all those bridges the Israelis so helpfully destroyed on the first night...

Of course, Hisbullah would have left their assets in place, and helped direct traffic so civilians could escape.

I'd love to see you over there as a poor leb peasant trying to keep your family safe and see what you would do...

I would have taken my kids and whatever else I could carry and left the area years ago.

MtG champion of the innocent civilian!

I know you've wanted me since the original U571 thread, so fine, you can eat me, big boy.

Hezb and their masters need to be dealt with, but initially there seems little point doing it at the barrel of a gun... It amazes me that you simply have no grasp or imagination about how things *could* be solved.

Yes, an organization accountable to nobody (except loosely to Iran and Syria), with a "flexible" and often invisible membership, should be granted the recognition due to a sovereign state in order to "negotiate."

Gutless no. That is just your limited intellectual capability being exposed again thinking that. They are playing a cold and calculating game and as far as I can tell they've suckered Israel straight into their trap.

Apparently, English is your second language. Since when does "cold and calculating" relate to gutlessness or the lack of it? If you choose to snipe somone without reason or warning from a hidden position 600 meters away, it may well be cold and calculating, but it's also certainly gutless.

Back to the madrassah for you, abu Moby.

Obviously you don't know because your typically neanderthal response is brutish, indisciminate destruction!

Do you really think the destruction is "indiscriminate?" Do you really think Israel is incapable of killing far, far more civilians, and destroying far more of southern Lebanon?

Yes, they do use bridges - but so do the civilians you want to run away from the fighting, you absurd little man!

Bridges are absolutely vital, proper military targets. It sucks for the civilians delayed in escape or hit while attempting to get out of the area, but Hisbullah and their sponsors, and the lackey Lebanese government are the ones who created this situation.

I await your next ignorant attempts at dodging the real issues and only tackling the ones you feel you might know the answers to...

Eat me. Your rants aren't worth point by point response, and you've been refuted so many times by so many people on so many threads here, it's not even sport.

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
No - you're just such a predictable, repetitive little twit that most of your "points" aren't worth response.

Well you seem to do fine answering dozens of my other extremely worthwhile points in this very thread, don't you...

Hoist on your own petard!

More ignorance from Mobystan. "Precision" ordance will actually hit the target. Did you ever think of that? The targeting may be incorrect, it may be overzealous, it may be based on faulty intel, or it may hit a high value target, but it will hit what it's aimed at. Hisbullah's tactic is just point, shoot and run - and who knows what, if anything, might be under wherever the piece of **** rocket will eventually land. Precision guidance vs unaimed has nothing to do with casualties, you ****wit.

Yes, you're absolutely right - they finally had to use precision ordnance to take out those US observers!

But at least you've cleared the precision question up for me - that is to say logically that if the IDF is using precision weapons and still killing ten times as many civilians as hezb fighters, they are obviously grossly incompetent or don't give a flying **** about killing civilians (or the UN), or may even be deliberately targeting them because - as you yourself say - you're guaranteed to hit with precision ordance!

So all you've done is prove my point - hezb is a far more effective fighting force than the IDF because they have killed a far higher proportion of military personnel and that Israel don't give a **** who they kill and how many for each hezb fighter (who's probably already left before the precision weapons kill all the civilians)...

MtG Reeled in once again!

Heh, whassamatter - can't refute that eh?

See, you leave out the pertinent points and home in on stuff you think you know only to prove my own points for me...

They should have abandoned the area years ago - do people still live in Chernobyl, for ****'s sake. "Yes, we will raise our children among "resistance fighters" and their rocket factories, bunkers, etc...." But Emile Lahoud said it best: "Hisbullah is part of the government of Lebanon." So civilians get ****ed by their government, and the only use Hisbullah has for them is the propaganda value of their deaths and misery. And that's the side you're supporting?

Where? You ignorant ass. You comments are preposterous on so many levels!

Most of these people are dirt poor. They can't afford to go anywhere else, unlike rich westerner MtG with his 2.5 SUV's - it's not like Israel has pulled this sort of stunt for over 20 years. And I am assuming you're not ignorant about Shia/Sunni divide either? According to MtG the civs have to use their crystal balls and work out where hezb will drive their katyushas next to - that's half the country you imbecilic moron!!!

Hey everyone - MtG reckons the Leb civs should have cleared out of half their country as a precaution against the possibility of a massive disproportionate mass targeting of thousands of civilians with precision weapons!!!

But then given how bloodthirsty the Israelis are...

And you're so stupid you seem to think I happen to support hezb!!? Where did you get that idea from? I just happen to think that the other side are acting like even greater terrorists...

Of course, Hisbullah would have left their assets in place, and helped direct traffic so civilians could escape.

MtG obviously on another planet! Evidently they moved them anyway cos Israel hasn't been able to stem the tide of rockets despite their blitzkrieg of precision weapons against civ, er hezb targets!

I would have taken my kids and whatever else I could carry and left the area years ago.

MtG, the cowardly refugee... Why should they roll-over like pussies and leave the area they've lived for generations - losing their lands to become most likely homeless refugees!!? They're only in real danger if Israel launches the sort of incompetent ****-storm it has these last weeks. And to put things into perspective - it's still probably safer hunkered down in S. Leb than living in downtown Baghdad!

You. Total. Spineless. *****.

I know you've wanted me since the original U571 thread, so fine, you can eat me, big boy.

Hah! Mr revisionist, I'd lay off the peyote if I were you! I handed your ass to you on a plate and proved you didn't know **** about enigma - just go back and check the thread, I know they're in the archives...

Yes, an organization accountable to nobody (except loosely to Iran and Syria), with a "flexible" and often invisible membership, should be granted the recognition due to a sovereign state in order to "negotiate."

I'm sure they're accountable all right... As I said "no imagination"...

Apparently, English is your second language. Since when does "cold and calculating" relate to gutlessness or the lack of it? If you choose to snipe somone without reason or warning from a hidden position 600 meters away, it may well be cold and calculating, but it's also certainly gutless.

Think about what is going on for a second (I know that's hard for you!), there is nothing gutless about what hezb are doing - I mean, what tactics would you use against one of the world's most sophisticated armies (in equipment, if not leadership) Mr expert MtG? I assume you're not gutless, after all. Though judging by what you would do as a leb civ, maybe you are a chicken**** after all...

Do you really think the destruction is "indiscriminate?" Do you really think Israel is incapable of killing far, far more civilians, and destroying far more of southern Lebanon?

Of course not, only a stupid person would think that could do no worse. But as the UN strike shows, they appear careless in the extreme when it comes to choosing the 'suitability' of targets. The indiscriminate nature is the targets chosen and the disproportionate civilian deaths resulting...

Bridges are absolutely vital, proper military targets. It sucks for the civilians delayed in escape or hit while attempting to get out of the area, but Hisbullah and their sponsors, and the lackey Lebanese government are the ones who created this situation.

Including the ones in the far north of the country well away from the zone of conflict!!? But at least you finally admit your allegiances, the fact that you imply the Lebanese govt is in some way responsible for this... There is the justification for destroying an entire country!

The only people who created this situation is Israel - they caused the destruction of Leb. hezb merely provoked them, but Israel had plenty of other avenues open to it rather than systematically dismantling the country!

Eat me. Your rants aren't worth point by point response, and you've been refuted so many times by so many people on so many threads here, it's not even sport.

Ahh the obviously blatant hypocrisy is astounding!

Have you any idea how stupid your response to my point makes you look!??????????????

Priceless!

[Heresson]

You guys don't like each other in general, or just in this thread/topic?

[Lancer]

Two people who may never have met calling each other names because they disagree? Get used to it.

[Heresson]

What are You doing in Bohol, Philippines?
I like the bunny, btw. It's lovely.

[MOBIUS]

I think MtG is a swell guy and have a lot of time for him, it's just sometimes he needs to be taken down a peg or two...

I can't even remember who started calling who names, in which thread or for what reason but it's become something of a harmless little convention between us.

Think of it as a microcosm of the Israel/Arab conflict - except we use words instead of terrorist tactics.

I'm man enough to stop trading insults whenever he is and let the argument do the talking - we can start right now!

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by MOBIUS


Well you seem to do fine answering dozens of my other extremely worthwhile points in this very thread, don't you...

Dozens? You have a funny way of counting. You're supposed to do it on with your fingers (on your hands), not that little pinkie between your legs. And "extremely worthwhile?" Who are you trying to convince?

But at least you've cleared the precision question up for me - that is to say logically that if the IDF is using precision weapons and still killing ten times as many civilians as hezb fighters, they are obviously grossly incompetent or don't give a flying **** about killing civilians (or the UN), or may even be deliberately targeting them because - as you yourself say - you're guaranteed to hit with precision ordance!

Maybe we need a virtual "no-hit" rocket called the Mobyusha. Perhaps one of the reasons more Lebanese civilians have been hit is because there are more Lebanese civilians on or near Hisbullah targets. Obviously there has also been mistargeting, but then again, you can't exactly park an airplane in middair, go to the vehicle in question, and ask for their driver's licenses, now can you?

So all you've done is prove my point - hezb is a far more effective fighting force than the IDF because they have killed a far higher proportion of military personnel and that Israel don't give a **** who they kill and how many for each hezb fighter (who's probably already left before the precision weapons kill all the civilians)...

MtG Reeled in once again!

"Far more effective" - have you been infested by aliens from the Nedaverse? Just because they fire blind and usually don't hit a thing, makes them "far more effective?"

Where? You ignorant ass. You comments are preposterous on so many levels!

Most of these people are dirt poor. They can't afford to go anywhere else, unlike rich westerner MtG with his 2.5 SUV's

You dumb ****ing knobgobbler. Do you think economic refugees from Haiti, central America, China, Africa and all over the world aren't even poorer? Yet, somehow, a lot of them manage to go great distances to escape war, famine, ethnic or religious persecution or simply extreme poverty. Yet somehow, of all the dirt poor people all over the world, only the Lebanese in Hisbullah strongholds across the Israeli border are unable to move. Did Hisbullah ever renounce its aims towards Israel? Did Hisbullah ever disarm? Did Hisbullah ever stop stockpiling rockets, smallarms and ammunition and storing them all over southern Lebanon? No. So the civilians there had plenty of knowledge of Hisbullah's presence and long-range intentions. If you're the type who is gutless enough to expose your kids to life in that environment, that's your choice, but you don't have to be an apologist for it.

- it's not like Israel has pulled this sort of stunt for over 20 years.

And it is like Hisbullah has been preparing for this for as long. How did this whole thing start again?

According to MtG the civs have to use their crystal balls and work out where hezb will drive their katyushas next to - that's half the country you imbecilic moron!!!

I didn't know that the north to south extent of Lebanon was only 60 miles. The majority of Hisbullah launch sites and their concentrations of force and materiel are less than 30 miles from the Israeli border. Maybe you got the math wrong because you were using your dick instead of a ruler to measure the map of Lebanon.

Hey everyone - MtG reckons the Leb civs should have cleared out of half their country as a precaution against the possibility of a massive disproportionate mass targeting of thousands of civilians with precision weapons!!!

What's with this "hey everyone" horse****? Are you like the pimply little class clown who has to constantly call attention to yourself?

And a cute strawman - yes, it makes more sense to stay among an armed militia, and their weapons caches, next to the border of the country who they exist to fight against.

And you're so stupid you seem to think I happen to support hezb!!? Where did you get that idea from? I just happen to think that the other side are acting like even greater terrorists...

You're like a rabid dog biting its tail in search of imaginary fleas. Anything the US or Israel does (or is alleged by anyone to have done) is automatically true, evil, and even worse than reported, while the poor peaceloving arabs like Hisbullah and the Iraqis under Hussein (remember your moronic "Highway of Death" rant) are just victims of misunderstanding and overreaction. You're worse than a supporter - you're an apologist, without the guts to take a stand and be a supporter.

MtG obviously on another planet! Evidently they moved them anyway cos Israel hasn't been able to stem the tide of rockets despite their blitzkrieg of precision weapons against civ, er hezb targets!

Of course, let's skip over inconvenient details like how many rockets Hisbullah could have been firing without Israeli interdiction, or how much capacity to make and fuel new rockets has been destroyed by Israel.

MtG, the cowardly refugee... Why should they roll-over like pussies and leave the area they've lived for generations

Ah, yes, the ayatollah Mobyolah has the geneology of every Lebanese civilian living in the towns in southern Lebanon - and they've all been there "for generations."
Yes, they by all means they should stay there in war zone in the midst of hostile armed forces to prove a point for some little ****wit safely hidden away in the UK. How many dead Lebanese kids do you want to make you feel validated?

- losing their lands to become most likely homeless refugees!!?

I thought they were dirt poor. Too dirt poor to leave. So now they're landowners? Doo-do-doo-do Doo-do-doo-do - you are now entering the Moby zone. Better a live homeless refugee than dead in a crater that used to be your home.

They're only in real danger if Israel launches the sort of incompetent ****-storm it has these last weeks. And to put things into perspective - it's still probably safer hunkered down in S. Leb than living in downtown Baghdad!

Hisbullah is having its ass kicked. It's unfortunate that achieving that has caused civilian death and misery, but this is Hisbullah's doing.

You. Total. Spineless. *****.

There now, feel better? I can almost see you grimace as you poop those words out the wrong orifice. I'd think you'd be used to it by now, since that's how so many of your postings are generated.

Hah! Mr revisionist, I'd lay off the peyote if I were you! I handed your ass to you on a plate and proved you didn't know **** about enigma - just go back and check the thread, I know they're in the archives...

You proved you didn't know the difference between two distinct parts loosely and inconsistently translated into
English. Most of your whining in that thread (and it's successors, you just couldn't let it go) was how Hollywood was a propanda arm of the US, because a cheesy teeny-bopper movie was made about a US sub instead of a Brit one.

Think about what is going on for a second (I know that's hard for you!), there is nothing gutless about what hezb are doing

Hiding among civilians? random rocket attacks? These are supposed to be ****ing jihadist warriors for Allah, not little poofter punks playing back alley mugger.

- I mean, what tactics would you use against one of the world's most sophisticated armies (in equipment, if not leadership) Mr expert MtG?

I wouldn't be fighting Israel. It's proven to be pointless for over half a century, but Hisbullah isn't about tactics, it's about ego, power and extremism.

I assume you're not gutless, after all. Though judging by what you would do as a leb civ, maybe you are a chicken**** after all...

**** you. Anyone who would put ego and proving a point over the safety of their families is the real chicken****. If they want to prove a point, then get their families out and stay and fight. You can't have it both ways - supporter of Hisbullah, but whining about being a poor, innocent, victimized civilian.

Of course not, only a stupid person would think that could do no worse. But as the UN strike shows, they appear careless in the extreme when it comes to choosing the 'suitability' of targets. The indiscriminate nature is the targets chosen and the disproportionate civilian deaths resulting...

I wasn't aware you were privy to Israeli military intel data to evaluate the overall quality of their target selection? Wow, I'm impressed.

Including the ones in the far north of the country well away from the zone of conflict!!? But at least you finally admit your allegiances, the fact that you imply the Lebanese govt is in some way responsible for this... There is the justification for destroying an entire country!

I didn't imply it - Emile Lahoud came right out and said it. Well, Emile, you reap what you sew.

The only people who created this situation is Israel - they caused the destruction of Leb. hezb merely provoked them, but Israel had plenty of other avenues open to it rather than systematically dismantling the country!

Yes, they could have pulled a Masada, or converted to Islam, or tried to collectively swim across the Med. Hisbullah has operated with Syrian and Iranian sponsorship and Lebanese government collaboration for over two decades. The Lebanese government are finding out that there's a cost to hosting and supporting a terrorist organization that attacks it's neighbors across the border.

Edit - fixed $%^& quote tag.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Heresson
You guys don't like each other in general, or just in this thread/topic?

We wuvs each other.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Heresson


He is an anti-syrian politician and a leader of a party rival to Hezbollah, so don't take his voice as objective

So the Lebanese who want Syria out, are the ones saying that Shabaa Farms was "given" to Lebanon by Syria to keep Syrian and Hezbollah influence. While the Leb politicians who are aligned with Syria and Hezbollah are eager to claim Shabaa Farms.

I dont see how that contradicts what ive said.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Spiffor

Wow.

I'm at a loss about how to respond to such delusion.
Well, let's just say one thing. When the Serbs killed many Kosovars, and forced many, many more to flee and never return, were they "immigrants that choose to settle down in a specific area"?

I'm saying this, and I happen to want the continued existence of Israel. But to say that Israel started as simply a bunch of peaceful immigrants is absolutely insane. The very raison d'être of Israel as a Jewish state made ethnical policies (and thus ethnical cleansing) unavoidable.

Spiff,

Are you comparing the events of 1948 in Israel to the events of spring 1999 in Kosovo? Israel in 1948 faced war with all its arab neighbors, and the arab population, which denied its right to exist as a state, and attempted to destroy it. Something Serbia did NOT face in spring 1999. And even so, Israel did NOT engage in a deliberate campaign to force all Arabs out of Israeli controlled areas. In the famous case of Lod, so often cited as "proof" of expulsion, they expelled them from Lod only because Lod sat on the supply line to Jerusalem, which was under siege, and they were unable to control. Regrettable, but must be seen in the context of the expulsion of the Jewish population from the old City of Jerusalem, and the massacre of the Jewish population of Gush Etzion. In some cases they actually transferred them from one area under Israeli control to another area under Israeli control, which hardly matches with a plan to use expulsion to change the demographic balance.


In any case, we are not likely to reach agreement on the events of 1948. I think you and I, at least, are in agreement that a debate about 1948 will not address the issues of today. Herreson trolled by bringing up 1948. Blackcat made the mistake of responding. I suggest we drop discussions of 1948, which will lead to going around in the usual circles, and focus instead on the problem in Lebanon.

[Heresson]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


So the Lebanese who want Syria out, are the ones saying that Shabaa Farms was "given" to Lebanon by Syria to keep Syrian and Hezbollah influence. While the Leb politicians who are aligned with Syria and Hezbollah are eager to claim Shabaa Farms.

I dont see how that contradicts what ive said.

The quote You've attached yourself proves wrong his claims. He also called president Al-Asad "a terrorist".
In democracy, unbiased politicians do not use such descriptions of leaders of foreign states.

[Heresson]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


Spiff,

Are you comparing the events of 1948 in Israel to the events of spring 1999 in Kosovo? Israel in 1948 faced war with all its arab neighbors, and the arab population, which denied its right to exist as a state, and attempted to destroy it. Something Serbia did NOT face in spring 1999. And even so, Israel did NOT engage in a deliberate campaign to force all Arabs out of Israeli controlled areas. In the famous case of Lod, so often cited as "proof" of expulsion, they expelled them from Lod only because Lod sat on the supply line to Jerusalem, which was under siege, and they were unable to control. Regrettable, but must be seen in the context of the expulsion of the Jewish population from the old City of Jerusalem, and the massacre of the Jewish population of Gush Etzion. In some cases they actually transferred them from one area under Israeli control to another area under Israeli control, which hardly matches with a plan to use expulsion to change the demographic balance.


In any case, we are not likely to reach agreement on the events of 1948. I think you and I, at least, are in agreement that a debate about 1948 will not address the issues of today. Herreson trolled by bringing up 1948. Blackcat made the mistake of responding. I suggest we drop discussions of 1948, which will lead to going around in the usual circles, and focus instead on the problem in Lebanon.

First of all, Heresson, not Herreson.
Secondly, it's not a troll. It's the root of the conflict, that Israel and America are quick to forget.
It's not only Ludd. And tell me, if Jews wanted only to defend what they were given by UN, what on earth were their militia doing in Jerusalem, which was far away from territory they got?